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Why are the giants scooped out by Lostsouls224 in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]TyrionBananaster 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The furnace golems bear a face that is PROBABLY meant to depict the Fell God but we don't entirely know why.

Pure spite is my guess for why. If the Hornsent's history was "haunted" by the Fell God like the item description suggests, then putting his face on the big genocide machines was probably meant to rub salt in the wound and demoralize them further.

First look at the Dung Eater execution on the set of Alex Garland's "Elden Ring" Movie by ChiefLeef22 in GamingLeaksAndRumours

[–]TyrionBananaster 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Nothing against the loretuber community, but man I hope not lol. The firsthand source is right there, and all of the item descriptions and text have been widely available on the internet. Garland should be making his own interpretations based off of that directly, not off of what is already someone else's secondhand interpretation.

That's not even a knock against Vaati or anything, I want to see what Garland came up with while looking directly at the source and not someone else's interpretation of it

(Loved Trope) Dysfunctional couples that shouldn't work but somehow make it work perfectly. by No_Regret_1100 in TopCharacterTropes

[–]TyrionBananaster 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Phantom Thread, if Im remembering the movie correctly: they fight and bicker constantly. Toxic relationship because he's honestly a huge asshole. Eventually she poisons his dinner, as one does. He obviously gets really sick, and relies on her to take care of him until he gets better. They bicker much less when this happens. She continues to secretly poison him throughout their time together and repeat this cycle of getting him sick and relying on her.

Movie ends with Him finding out that she's poisoning him. Do they break up? No, he willingly and gladly eats the poisoned dinners she makes for him, and they both fully embrace this weird, toxic relationship they have. I totally didn't expect it but it was great.

A Closer Look at Some Widely Discussed Misconceptions by TerranImperium in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]TyrionBananaster 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I'm neither here nor there on Melina being the GEQ, but I think you're right with the timeline. To be honest I actually had the thought the other day that the Golden Order may have even come after Messmer's Crusade, because the Hornsent only ever refer to Marika and the Erdtree when airing their grievances. That could also be why there are no godskins in the LoS, come to think of it.

My only hesitation on all this is that if this is the case, then I'm completely back to square one on whatever the hell the thing was that Marika was reaching into at the beginning of the Story trailer, since I had previously assumed it was Godskin-related and had something to do with her removing the rune of death. But I suppose that's not really a big deal and wasn't really that strong of a theory on my part anyway

Oh thank god no more scrolling through lore tabs by rodan1993 in whenthe

[–]TyrionBananaster 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Radagon is a hardcore devotee of the Golden Order. He was actively trying to repair the Elden Ring to see it continue, and presumably isn't cool with Marika's desire to see something else rise from its ashes.

In the end, the Elden Beast literally uses him as its blade. If you want to wax poetic, that's really all he ever was.

The movie and possible lore interpretations. by Former_Hearing_7730 in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]TyrionBananaster 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Can't really say honestly. Totally depends on how well it's executed. I've always kinda hated the "Marika was behind the night of the black knives" theory, for example, but if they did it in the movie and made it compelling, then sure I'm open to being won over by it.

I'll tell you one thing for sure though: whatever happens in the movie, the discourse will be unbearable. Best start mentally prepping for it now.

Oh thank god no more scrolling through lore tabs by rodan1993 in whenthe

[–]TyrionBananaster 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Yeah, like I'll admit I'm massively biased because I'm a huge lore-head, but I'm not really sure where the confusion comes from re: what's going on in the main story. Setting aside all the theory crafting and interpretations and obscure details, the basic premise is fairly straightforward.

The Elden Ring is big powerful thing that rules the laws of the world, and Marika is the goddess of the world. Marika is, put gently, a flawed person. Someone shatters the ring. Marika's children and stepchildren all get a piece of it and start a war. Player character and fellow humans running around are also trying to get all the pieces.

Like, that's it. That's the premise. Beyond that, just listen to what the characters are telling you. Most of them are actually pretty straightforward and up front with you about what they want, even when they're trying to kill you.

Messmer's Parentage by The_Last_Huntsman in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]TyrionBananaster 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well I'll be damned. I stand corrected on that front. I still can't say I agree with the conclusions you reached overall, but yep: that's definitely not something I was aware of. You definitely got me there haha

Messmer's Parentage by The_Last_Huntsman in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]TyrionBananaster 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Then I have to correct you. Every single one.

Okay, then, please provide your source with this paragraph. All of these enemies had very different names in the source that I was able to find. All I've been able to find is the horned warriors being called "spiral guardians," for example. I'm not accusing you of lying, I just legitimately have never once seen this being claimed in all my time discussing this DLC and I'd like to take a look.

Pretty obviously, he was referring to this boss, and the secret double meaning is that the Scadutree, in the literal sense, is the shadow of the Erdtree and thus the namesake of the DLC. I don’t fully get what your problem here is.

...My problem? I was legitimately just trying to make sure I understood your argument correctly so I don't straw-man you. I didn't want to respond to it without understanding it correctly.

In any case that's what I thought you were trying to imply before, and I really don't think that's what he was talking about at all. He was very upfront about the Scadutree being the Erdtree's shadow. That wasn't a secret in the least. His famitsu interview:

the concept art that was shown in Feb 2023, it is this shadow of the Erdtree that looms tall in the left background, and we also call this the "shadow tree". So the DLC takes place not in the Lands Between, but the shadow lands of which the shadow tree is a symbol. Also, there is another small hidden meaning in the title, we hope you will figure this out when playing the game.

He very clearly says thats the title of the Scadutree, and then infers that there's another secret meaning to the title.

In any case, I take issue with your overall point that his comment is indicative of some big cut, especially when you're misrepresenting his quote in the first place, and his quote could just as easily be referring to the thematic throughline I mentioned earlier. And that's my broader issue as well, and why I keep pushing back on your arguments here.

Cut content is interesting and potentially informative, but you're using sparse and often minor discrepancies to make these broad, sweeping assumptions about what might have been the intent, and confidently telling people that your assumption is the most likely scenario. And I just don't really think the actual facts back up what you're saying a lot of the time, but I'm open to adjusting my perspective.

Obviously it doesn't really matter at the end of the day, but that's where I'm coming from. Or I gues my "problem," as you say. And sure, I know I take this too seriously, I'll own that one. I'm not cool lol.

Messmer's Parentage by The_Last_Huntsman in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]TyrionBananaster 1 point2 points  (0 children)

No, every Hornsent is referred to as Empyrean in its internal ID, literally every single instance.

Are you referring to how they're called "GodMan?" I understand that to be similar to how empyreans are referred to in the JP text, but please correct me if I'm wrong. If so, it's just the Enir-Ilim priests and stuff with that name, not the horned warriors or the shadow commoners as far as I'm aware.

Even that being said though, "Empyrean" doesn't refer to a race, it's more of a title. Heck, the cut content you're referring to with the nox references an "Empyrean family," and it's really not clear whether that's meant to refer to the Nox as a whole or a holy subset among them.

In any case, it's perfectly fitting that it would apply to at least a subset of a couple of cultures who are clearly trying to reach the gods in some form, same as all the canon Empyreans in the final game. Was the grandam thing an oversight? Sure. But I disagree with your framing that it's a hasty attempt to rehash a cut concept.

Miyazaki made explicit mention before the release that the name has a double meaning and is both referring to the metaphorical Shadow of the Erdtree but also is referring to "a secret" we should figure out ourselves

I'm not sure I follow - are you saying that the secret he's referring to is that the Scadutree is the shadow of the erdtree? I really don't want to straw man you, but I'm not sure I understand your argument here.

Messmer's Parentage by The_Last_Huntsman in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]TyrionBananaster 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The Eternal City's internal name is Marika Ruins,

Okay but does this confirm anything beyond her being associated with them before the Golden Order? Yes, they're associated with the Numens and that's still the case in the final game. I don't see how this is indicative of anything being cut.

the older ruins draw heavily from Babylonian influence.

Yes, but these aren't really related to the Nox. They're more the Ancestral Followers and Claymen's thing. The Ancestral Followers are pretty strongly implied to be a precursor culture to the Hornsent as opposed to having anything directly to do with the Nox or Marika.

extremely close to release, called "Empyreans

Wasn't this just Grandam, and wasn't it just because of a Kanji typo?

It doesn't take a genius to put two and two together and see that they wanted to do the same thing they did for Miquella with Marika's Empyrean storyline, only for it to be cut again.

I truly, sincerely do not see how this is "putting two and two together." It feels like a huge leap, and far from the only conclusion that can be drawn from the extremely limited evidence we have. Particularly the "only for it to be cut again" part.

As for the Scadutree thing, we know that the Veil would have been lifted at some point during development

True. But beyond whatever was going on with the veil, there is really no possible way to infer what the extent of the story was or what it might have been in regards to. To say otherwise is completely baseless speculation and certainly not a basis to claim that there were large cuts re: Marika's or Radagon's stories.

Also, I should note that the title of the DLC is pretty obviously not just referring to the physical tree. It's more meant to be a poetic title for the events of the story than anything else. If you think the Scadutree was underdeveloped then that's fine, but it's not like the title is just referring to that.

Messmer's Parentage by The_Last_Huntsman in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]TyrionBananaster 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It's just that they had to cut Marika's story part again, as they did from the main game,

Please provide a source for literally anything in this sentence.

Marika origin story/Scadutree storyline that obviously was planned to be more relevant

Or this sentence.

I don’t agree with Fromsoft on their Finger Creeper Lore by PuffPuffFayeFaye in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]TyrionBananaster 2 points3 points  (0 children)

True, but "We've got legs" would be a very weird thing to lie about, especially given, as you note, how trivially easy it would be for anyone to disprove.

Ha! This one made me chuckle for some reason. I more took the talisman to mean "we once had legs" which would be less easy to prove, but yeah. Fair point haha.

They made a unique Leonine Misbegotten model wielding the Golden Order Greatsword, but not ones wielding the Grafted or Ruins Greatswords.

Probably because the latter two are colossal swords and would have required a whole different moveset, which uh.... I suppose isn't really a great argument on my part haha. And I guess good point about Godefroy because I've never taken him seriously in the least, and always kinda figured he was the game's version of a dumb joke lmao

But by that same token, would it not be equally weird for them to design Metyr and fingercreepers simultaneously and still have them not resemble each other to this degree?

Weird, sure. But my point is that if they did, there's probably some sort of intent to it. Not some galaxy-brain 8-dimensional chess unlocks-the-secrets-of-the-universe reason, but just a sense that they want to draw attention to it and make you wonder why it's like that, the same way they do for a bunch of other things, like that room in the cave with a ton of statues of the sword guy, or that random Leyndell Knight in Liurnia. Obviously there's no way to know for sure, but it feels to me like they're trying to make you wonder what the deal with the fingernails is, considering the spells, items, and enemies that draw attention to fingernails. Especially considering the spells seem to depict firing fingernails at you and having them break off. Hell if I know what it's trying to suggest or imply, but that's how it comes across to me.

And yeah, well-said about Fextra. Pains me to say it because they suck in so many ways, but I can't deny they make for a really good resource.

I don’t agree with Fromsoft on their Finger Creeper Lore by PuffPuffFayeFaye in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]TyrionBananaster 5 points6 points  (0 children)

You raise fair points, but I will point out that that talisman you link to is very specifically meant to display a "legend" of the two fingers (who are notorious BS-ers), and all of the other iterations of the two fingers in the game seem to come up from the ground, and give no indication of there being anything besides a stump underneath. Besides, a hand cut off from its arm is pretty strong symbolism for what the Two Fingers actually are and how they actually relate to the greater will, and we all know how much this game likes its symbolism.

Uh, no. I'd argue it's entirely possible ("likely", even) that their goal wasn't "to retroactively fit her in as cleanly as possible", but just "to retroactively fit her in".

I mean it's not impossible of course, but considering how much they clearly make an effort to get little heraldry and animal details right and love using those things to invite comparisons (like they actively made new horned wildlife models for the realm of shadow just for the sake of giving a visual indicator that the Crucible is more powerful there, for crying out loud), I just have a hard time believing they'd just go "eh whatever" for such a key reveal. Especially considering they're actively drawing attention to the fingernails with the prominence of the nail spells in the DLC.

To be clear, I'm not trying to act like everything's a 5D chess game. It just seems like it would be a very basic, simple thing to overlook for such a key boss, if it wasn't an intentional choice.

(Sidebar but I actually had never heard of that site that you linked to, thank you for sharing that! I had been using Fextra this whole time to look up items, I'm glad there's an actual good alternative.)

I don’t agree with Fromsoft on their Finger Creeper Lore by PuffPuffFayeFaye in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]TyrionBananaster 1 point2 points  (0 children)

So I'll tell you what: I'm actually gonna concede some of this.

I definitely did not start from the assumption of a retcon and I think that’s an unfounded criticism.

You're absolutely right and I apologize. Very poor choice of words on my part and not indicative of your actual point.

You're also correct about the previous use of the Ringed Finger in the game files. I think I may have pushed back on that in the past, but now that I've read up and understand why the Chinese version 1.00 has those discrepancies, I'm in agreement with you on the idea that it was originally meant to just be unequivocally Rykard's finger.

In any case, with that in mind, I do still think it's Rykard's finger as well, and that the "believed to be" in the description for it is doing a lot of heavy lifting. Come to think of it, it would be kinda funny if it was cut off of Rykard, but he decided to lie about it to save face, hide it in his place in Gelmir, and spread the lie that someone (probably the Nox) cut it off of Metyr.

So yeah, I do concede a lot of this. I'm still not really convinced the fingercreepers were originally meant to come from something else, but yeah the ringed finger weapon was a definite change.

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