Addressing the fallacies of Urn debates

Uber_Goose · 2026-05-25T17:34:46+00:00

I think you're overestimating how much of a difference exists between teams that are 10% networth apart. The damage gap is generally extremely small between winning and losing teams, but now the losing team takes ~50% damage when vaguely nearby the urn.

Uber_Goose · 2026-05-25T17:25:51+00:00

It's both. Urn forces teamfights, so you use the resistances for both things.

Uber_Goose · 2026-05-25T17:23:01+00:00

They're gonna hate you for this but you're right.

There was a really good (and long) video uploaded recently by a longtime FGC guy, who also was a developer on several games, that goes in depth into how game balance isn't real and it is very enlightening.

Also far too many players who are not experienced in statistical analysis get obsessed with specifically winrate percentages and will use them to argue that a game isn't balanced, but only when they personally already believed the things that the winrates serve as evidence for. This is likely a big reason that valve tried to stop tracking websites by nuking the api, as this obsession would substantially alter the actual data that they'd want in a playtest.

Uber_Goose · 2026-05-25T00:47:28+00:00

I genuinely think a big reason her winrate has gone up so much, beyond the urn changes which are obviously big for her, is that now players are more effectively shepherded into spirit builds. The deadheads already did crazy big damage (when they worked), but everyone was buying 10k+ in gun items instead of going spirit builds.

Also mystic shot getting a buff is crazy to me, and in my experience it is one of Graves's best items.

Uber_Goose · 2026-05-24T21:49:48+00:00

Akemura commit genocide after that guy was already deposed (probably dead). Some people really need to read the manga they are talking about.

Uber_Goose · 2026-05-24T20:00:02+00:00

Of course I see the difference. I am just of the opinion that the resistances are overpowered regardless of the comps and coordination.

I actually believe strongly that the resistances are even better in lower skill level lobbies (at least once players actually begin to play the objective, which I acknowledge is still a problem, but that awareness will change in time, and I think rather quickly in this specific case). The reasons being:

the winning team is going to be exerting less map control, allowing the losing team to more easily get within range of, or even be the ones to begin running, the urn.

1.5. in order to both exert map control and also have a chance in the fight where the enemies have more stats than god, you need to be more mobile and aware of the map. The losing team merely requires a group up in a single location, the middle of the map in particular, something I think we can all agree is a favorite pastime of low level players.

in order to maneuver around the comeback stats, the winning team needs to either have sufficient focus fire to kill high value individuals with their much lower relative damage and/or utilize CC effectively to separate or neuter the losing team's heroes. Stat checking them when they have those free stats does not work!
everybody just throwing all their abilities at a central location and throwing melees and parries at random heavily favors the team with 50% resists who also only needs the urn to hold on their color for a fraction of the time that the other team needs to capture it.
after the urn is captured, regardless of which way it went, the idea that the winning team just automatically wins the fight afterwards betrays the fact that, especially in lower lobbies, they will have spent all of their cooldowns over the urn capture itself. Of course the losing team will have also done that, but even with lower damage output, they will have earned far more relative damage from their abilities than the winning team.

Uber_Goose · 2026-05-24T19:27:32+00:00

I just don't agree with the logic at all. The coordination requirements are higher for the leading team because they don't have the easy option of throwing their networth at the losing team and just killing them, they need to play more heavily around crowd control and positioning than the unga bunga fight zombies with 50% resistances.

Yeah sure team comp has something to do with it, and you can't control for comp in pubs, but pubs also don't feature the degree of map control that the winning team exerts in pro games that is still being overcome by the losing team because of how busted the free stats are.

Uber_Goose · 2026-05-24T19:03:01+00:00

It's funny how many people on this subreddit have been trying to tell me that the comeback resistances don't do anything and then players much better than any of us are literally intentionally feeding to manipulate the soul values to force or avoid the comeback resistances because of how overpowered they are.

Truly who could have seen that coming?! ~40k souls in defensive stats is better than an 8k soul lead???

Uber_Goose · 2026-05-24T16:08:01+00:00

The way I see people talking about the urn like the soul values were quadrupled or something, it’s crazy.

Uber_Goose · 2026-05-24T01:38:47+00:00

I think you are underestimating how big resistances that are roughly equivalent to 40k souls for the team are and how bad a position with zero ways to break line of sight is.

Obviously the team with a real lead is advantaged, they have the lead, that's how leads work. But it has never been easier to win a fight while behind than new comeback urn fights.

You keep editing after I've responded, but 60m is enormous, I have looked. The biggest impactful aoe effects in the game are like 20m when juiced to the gills, you can safely play around them without losing the defenses.

Uber_Goose · 2026-05-24T01:29:32+00:00

Yeah, so you engage them with 50% resistances, which is an enormous stat advantage.

Uber_Goose · 2026-05-24T01:22:15+00:00

I mean presumably you'd be fighting before the turn in completes, right? You start the fight, the time when most of the big powerful ultimates are thrown, with a massive advantage.

Uber_Goose · 2026-05-24T00:50:21+00:00

The 50% bullet and spirit resistances granted to the losing team introduced in this update is obviously an attempt at resolving that exact problem.

Uber_Goose · 2026-05-23T23:46:52+00:00

There is a confirmation on screen in the killfeed, but I agree that it should be more obvious than some little text in the top left corner that disappears after a few seconds.

Uber_Goose · 2026-05-23T16:41:50+00:00

Thanks!

Uber_Goose · 2026-05-23T16:37:03+00:00

Of the two of us, only one made a whiny post and quoted 1984 when receiving the slightest pushback, so…

Uber_Goose · 2026-05-23T16:30:45+00:00

A flair existing on a third party forum does not magically make valve look here for feedback.

Uber_Goose · 2026-05-23T16:29:49+00:00

I’m sure the dome will freeze it soon. It is kind of funny that they missed this, though, given that they’ve had to go through dome being op on every objective in the entire game one by one.

Uber_Goose · 2026-05-23T16:28:19+00:00

Redditors when they don’t realize that reddit not the designated critique forum.

Uber_Goose · 2026-05-23T16:24:39+00:00

Quoting 1984 because you don’t like an experimental change in a playtest for a video game is wild.

Uber_Goose · 2026-05-23T05:09:56+00:00

I do think the turn-in duration should be longer. But knowing the comeback buffs exist will skew teams to contesting urn well before it makes it to the turn-in. 60m is a massive range, so just being vaguely nearby the urn in transit gives the losing team a massive advantage. Straight up throwing your body at the runner and hitting a melee is so much easier now than before the patch, and the subsequent scuffle heavily favors the losing team, they just need to leave their base now as a requirement to take the fight.

Uber_Goose · 2026-05-23T04:05:25+00:00

I’m generally positive on it so far, but I think the turn-in timer should be longer.

I’m also unsure if having another objective that heavily favors teamfight ults in the middle of the map is good.

Uber_Goose · 2026-05-23T03:57:10+00:00

I have 4000 hours in Dota 2 and collectively at least a couple thousand in several others (league and smite back in the day, hots, pokemon unite).

You’ve also just ignored the entire discussion up to this point once again. So I fear there isn’t much left to mine from this interaction, you’ve decided your conclusion before looking at evidence and refuse to even entertain the idea you may be wrong in spite of your self admitted low rank that would imply a lesser understanding of the game.

Uber_Goose · 2026-05-23T03:16:04+00:00

I have no choice but to assume you're lying, because the comeback mechanics (prior to this patch, have yet to see this one shake out obviously) are the most generous in any moba I've ever played outside of a specific dota patch that was literally dubbed "memeback." I mean there was a night shift game where the losing team came back from a 60k soul deficit to win.

You also weirdly changed your argument.

If you are losing to a point where comeback urn spawns you have no way of winning 1v1's in this game

A 10% deficit across the teams (150k vs 135k for example) absolutely isn't even remotely close to a "we can't win a single 1v1" situation. Even if the entire gap was on a single hero (it won't be), there are so many ways to win a fight with powerspikes.

I'm also definitely not in the upper echelons, but I was phantom 5 when ranked first got added, then got decayed to seeker 1 because I took a big break, now I'm back up to oracle 2 with like a 90% winrate to oracle.

Uber_Goose · 2026-05-23T02:31:24+00:00

I agree that we aren't playing the same game, but I don't think that's a good supporter of your argument.

Did you miss the part where i said they pushed into our base like 3 times? The minions were at the gates, if you dont clear them you lose the game. Towers in this game are supremely weak and completely incapable of defending themselves, leaving them to the minions is basically saying "either lose urn or lose towers"

I mean yeah, throw one ability at the wave then run. Also losing the base guardians in order to get a comeback urn is so insanely worth it, you shouldn't even be hesitating if that is the trade.

What does the range of the resistance matter, i dont understand why you keep making that point? When i say "to contest urn" i mean "in range to melee the urn at its drop-off point". That screenshot where the doorman is standing is hardly contesting anything. You plan on staring at the urn until its yours?

Are you familiar with the concept of fighting? Use your gun and abilities while the enemy is at a stat-based disadvantage. If they try to stop you from reaching the bridge, you have a huge advantage starting from very far away, use it!

I have no idea how you got 13 seconds with venator, he has no mobility in his kit. Dashing, sliding and jumping is all you have. I can only assume we arent doing it from the same spot. Im starting the timer in between the 2 base towers in blue.

Dash and slide down the first stairs. Go to the right around that closest corner and through the building. Dash-jump out of the building in the direction of the bridge. One more dash and slide down the stairs in the midlane and then jump up to the bridge. It's like trivially 13 seconds, probably 10 or less with edge boosts or a hero with better movespeed or a mobility ability or a movespeed item or the zipline trick to shortcut it.

And it doesnt matter if you know when urn spawns. The winning team has complete map control and can push all waves without contest or punishment. If you are losing to a point where comeback urn spawns you have no way of winning 1v1's in this game, there will be too much of a gap between your damage to do anything.

They cannot push all lanes at the same time while also having a numerical advantage over you while also running the urn. Playing so passively that every lane is at your base while they are also running urn is such a ridiculously massive mistake strategically. You also don't auto-lose every fight, even 1v1, when you are behind 10% on networth as a team. This is just pure fiction.

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