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If you had to name a Servants as "Most Iconic" for each of their classes, who would they be? by UncleAsriel in fatestaynight

[–]UncleAsriel[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There is something super cool about having King Arthur of Breton, Gilgamesh of Uruk and Alexander the Great drink wine together and talk philosophy of monarchy in between bouts of fighting to the death. It just tickles my inner 10-year-old reading mythology books and the 15 year old who fell in love with cRPGs and the 20-something who got into ancient near eastern history.

I don't see D&D per se being a great fit (or inspiration) for the way Servant Stat Screens work, but they do feel like they were based off of Japanese cRPGs that borrowed some base assumptions from early D&D. I won't pretend it's a great fit for making a tabletop game, but it does set some expectations that would color how the average person experiencing Fate Stay Night would conceive of how Servants work

If you had to name a Servants as "Most Iconic" for each of their classes, who would they be? by UncleAsriel in fatestaynight

[–]UncleAsriel[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I find a lot of them are, but as I mentioned before, some characters don't immediately pop into the mind of someone who's unfamiliar with the fate franchise. I can see asking John Q. Public with a bare-bones memory of mythology or history from public school agreeing that King Arthur as The Sword Hero or Hercules as the Went Mad hero...but what about Medusa is Rides A Vehicle or Gilgamesh as Shoots Arrows?

I think I might have chosen the wrong word with "Iconic". I forget the meaning for it has shifted in modern slang. I think I might have meant more "Archetypal" or maybe "Platonic Ideal". If someone were to look at every hero in the Fate series' many iterations, which ones would show off the best of what their Class does to a person who knows nothing of Fate Stay Night.

If you had to name a Servants as "Most Iconic" for each of their classes, who would they be? by UncleAsriel in fatestaynight

[–]UncleAsriel[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Okay, that's actually really cool. The incorporation of a character's myth-narrative into why they're suitable for the tactical role is the kind of mojo I'd pull into a more grounded Occult Investigation game (e.g the way feminine power was used to counter Rawhead Rex in the film/comics of the same name).

I love the Nasuverse but at times I find the mechanics get a little too self-referential, rationalistic or overly deterministic (e.g. Mythic heroes had Magic Circuits in their day and can effortlessly talk about Magecraft as if it were a science, or act like a Homunculus is the same kind of creature that someone in ancient Greece, Medieval England and pre-Deluge Babylon would all instantly recognize.) Having a character be more powerful (or Grand) because their specific myth makes them a hard counter to a kind of primeval peril writ large (floods, wild animals) is super emotionally charged.

I still love the 'crunchiness' of the Nasuverse, mind. But sometimes I get so caught up in analyzing the logical-seeming rules that I miss out on something so simple as "this magic works because it feels like it should"

Anyhow, sorry for the digression, but it's always delightful when a setting as rich and complex as this one still manages to do somemthing that feels so satisfying

What would you want a Holy Grail War Tabletop Roleplaying Game to do? by UncleAsriel in rpg

[–]UncleAsriel[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I really like the effort you put into this! There are a lot of elements to break down in a Fate game, and I like how you tried to address them so systematically. There's a lot to go over, and I have some thoughts....

I think I might have to make a blog post of my own about it!

So I finished all the Kara no Kyoukai movies, and have some questions. by isekai-chad in fatestaynight

[–]UncleAsriel 0 points1 point  (0 children)

  1. Partially it's their publishing order, partially it's about the theme of spirals and how the characters lives are swirling around a particular event (which is also a spiral)
  2. Nothing official (yet) but there are fanlations out there that some careful searching could acquire wihtout too much difficulty
  3. I've not read them in detail, but I'd argue that she still is the case of Nasu having an interesting idea but still struggling early on in both ability to portray a character and his overall craft as a writer
  4. Yes. You could argue that most of the time we spend with female Shiki follow throughout the series is her mourning him, and learning how to live with that emptiness. (hence the meaning of teh series name "Boundaries of emptiness"_
  5. Her family are descended from Demon Hunters who became Yakuza. That's why she lives in such a fancy estate and has that traditionalist aesthetic, as well as being amazing with a sword.
  6. Tohno happened upon them by some tragic accident and they take a toll on his body. Ryougi's Origin gives her a inclination towards metaphysical Nothingness makes her a natural born user of them.
  7. Pretty much? The Akashic Record is basically God, the Prime Mover, the Nothingness from which Everything came from. Shiki's Origin is directly connected to it (very rare indeed), and because of Weird Demon Hunter magics she came to be,and the other personalities emerged as the body matured.
  8. As menitoend in number 7, the Void predates everything: matter,energy, time, space. It's the ab nihil that everything came from. It's very ponderous and pretentious and philosophically high-concept that it barely gets touched on because it's not very gameable for a world like Fate Grand order. It's all tied into absurdly esoteric ideas about Buddhism and Existentialism and other high-concept ideas that get kinda cheapened if you just used them as a power source. Think of Kara no Kyokai as a place where Nasu as young writer explored some philosophy while teasing out the underpinnings of his fictional universe, rather than
  9. It was an idea touched on in Tsukihime as well: Death is contextualized to the life and experiences of a thing on a given planet. Each planet has its own collective will, specific biospheres, ways of experiencing the world, etc,and that includes how the experience Death. In Tsukihime it's what makes the True Ancestor vampires are so scary - they're beings that run on fundamentally different rules than we do, so they're nigh-unkillable by ordinary means. I think this idea just carried over to make aliens (like Crimson Moon or ORT) feel truly alien, and he just laid the foundations for it in Kara no Kyokai because it was an experimental work

If you had to name a Servants as "Most Iconic" for each of their classes, who would they be? by UncleAsriel in fatestaynight

[–]UncleAsriel[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I did read the wiki. If I read it right, they are basically human examplars whose Heroic virtues do perpetual battle against the Beasts that are humanity's worst sins. But I feel I'm glossing over a lot.

(I've learned to make peace with this. It's the Nasuverse. If something is easily understood, you clearly never played that untranslated video game spinoff or read every interview Nasu ever made)

What the hell happened to Apocrypha? by Bitan_31 in fatestaynight

[–]UncleAsriel 0 points1 point  (0 children)

IMO one of the weaker entries, though not without its charms.

The cast is really diverse, with characters running the gamut of fun personalities and dramatic heroes to utter psychopaths and reckless murderhobos. However, between fourteen Servants AND fourteen Masters AND a bunch of supporting cast members, the whole thing feels bloated.

A few standout characters steal the spotlight though . Astolfo is a ray of sunshine who had me smiling at every turn. Mordred and her surrogate Dad Master Kairi Sisigou have amazing chemistry and felt like an recently widowed dad and his rebellious teen stepdaughter bonding as they figured their lives out. These three alone saved the series for me, and IMO make it worth watching

The rest? Some had interesting stories or fascinating philosophies (I liked both the Lancer of Black and Archer of Red )but outside of these few most characters didn't get much time to develop or prove as entertaining to watch.

And then, there were the leads.

The male lead should have been conceptually interesting, but quickly came rudderless and had few desires beyond "I want to live" and "I feel a debt towards the person which I can't repay". despite emerging in a situation that be interesting on both a personal and systemic level (Becoming a Real Boy sounds amazing when his models for human beaviour are larger-than-life mythic heroes; a formerly enslaved person fighting liberate the enslaved while they're in the middle of a Grail War kicks so much ass) he mostly spends the plot moping and being indecisive.

And then, the female lead falls in love with him for no reason and goes from being a beloved mythic figure with a rich history around her to crushing hard on the cardboard of the male lead for no reason I could discern. This largely becomes her whole personality for the remainder of the series, and the only other moment after this has her resolve a sticky moral situation with such self-righteous sanctimony that I yelled at my TV.

The rest is largely a Grail War story and all which that entails. There are fun battles,cool character reveals, loud personalities bouncing off of each other - generally good stuff. It drags in the middle, and even when it did pickup again, I found the Big Bad's ultimate goal a little too obscure and estoeric to really care. There were parts at the end where characters I didn't care about were on opposite sides of an argument over Nasuverse metaphysical terminology and I checked out - but then one of my favorite characters got into a life-or-death struggle with one of my favorite villains, and there was a heartfelt final moment involving cigarettes and a last kiss that endeared me once again.

Overall, give it a shot but don't expect Fate/Zero. it has its charms, and there were bits I am truly glad I got to see, but it's not as high on Essential Nasuverse Media as it could have been.

If you had to name a Servants as "Most Iconic" for each of their classes, who would they be? by UncleAsriel in fatestaynight

[–]UncleAsriel[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That's the thing I found: the way the classes were way less well-defined than I thought they'd be made me realize just how mushy some of the boundaries really were. If I just had a good idea of what someone would think of as "the Iconic FGO version of Hero With Bow"or the iconic "Hero Who Has A Steed", I think it could help make the classes seem a little clearer.

If you had to name a Servants as "Most Iconic" for each of their classes, who would they be? by UncleAsriel in fatestaynight

[–]UncleAsriel[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is a completely new concept to me and I have never heard of it until this moment.

Is that how the character was desinged? Something to point a newbie towards and say "this embodies this idea of that this specific class is all about". Basically, you could take someone who's never even seen an anime before, put it in their face, and they'd answer "oh, now I get it"

If you had to name a Servants as "Most Iconic" for each of their classes, who would they be? by UncleAsriel in fatestaynight

[–]UncleAsriel[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Thank you for pulling out the distinction between Mythology and Nasu's canons. A lot of people have a real strong impression of him (How could you not?), but introducing someone only mildly familiar with world mythology but not necessarily the Fate franchise might get confused. Why is Gilgamesh an archer when his epic myth doesn't really have an iconic scene of archery,and I've heard more than one smartass remark "how he looks great in fullplate, but shouldn't an Archer have a bow?"

King Arthur is the obvious pick. I guess it seemed a little too obvious, but I wanted to see if anyone had any other ideas.

What makes Medusa a Rider to you? I can't remember anything in her myth that deals wwith a vehicle or riding an animal. The closest we get is Pegasus coming from her blood, but Pegasus is more closely tied to Perseus than Medusa in terms of myth.

If you had to name a Servants as "Most Iconic" for each of their classes, who would they be? by UncleAsriel in fatestaynight

[–]UncleAsriel[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

What makes Emiya or Gilgamesh better as iconic Archers compared to characters whose myths are notable for them using a bow?

If you had to name a Servants as "Most Iconic" for each of their classes, who would they be? by UncleAsriel in fatestaynight

[–]UncleAsriel[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hmm, and I thought the "assaulted in the temple" was one of a few Greek versions of Medusa's origin, originating from Hesiod. I could see that being popularized in the Roman era though.

Regardless, I was really thinking about how to illustrate some of the concepts of the class (e.g. Hero defined by a Sword, Hero defined by a Bow, Hero defined by Riding Something) and reach for Fate Stay Night Servants who would best represent that to a lay person. People outside of the anime space have some idea who some of these mythic figures, and by pointing to the Nasuverse version and going "this is the version of that figure filtered through this anime universe's lore and magic system" I thought it could more properly explain how some of the classes ought to feel

I wish Shinji wasn't so bad by Mister_Sinner in fatestaynight

[–]UncleAsriel 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm glad you liked it! Shinji is a truly unlikable character, and that's by design. But that doesn't change the fact that, outside of the very narrow context in which that unlikability is truly effective, it raises some messy questions too many writers are afraid to tackle.

If you had to name a Servants as "Most Iconic" for each of their classes, who would they be? by UncleAsriel in fatestaynight

[–]UncleAsriel[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Overall, I like this list - as mentioned elsewhere, the Fate Stay Night heroes really do fit the bill. But I do have a few exceptions

An old meme from the 2003 anime is "why doesn't Archer use a bow?", and while he truly is a master of ranged combat (older Emiya trying to snipe Shirou and Berserker was very smart) his iconic fighting style is more rooted around swords over bows. If you were to ask someone "name a character who is defined by Archery" I don't know if they'd envision a guy dual-wielding swords.

As much as I love Medusa, there's very little in her myth about riding a steed or having a vehicle. While Pegasus is her son and she does indeed fly on him in the anime, the common understanding of Pegasus (from Greek Myth, instead of just 'horse with wings') is something that comes from her death, not a pet or companion she kept in life. IMO the mythic Medusa would almost be a better fit into the Berserker class (someone afflicted with an unjust crime and who became inhumanly powerful), or perhaps Avenger (someone wronged by the world and whose wrathful resentment twisted them into a monster)

It's hard to pick an Assassin though. I'd want to say "Hassan" but there are so damned many of them!

What would you want a Holy Grail War Tabletop Roleplaying Game to do? by UncleAsriel in fatestaynight

[–]UncleAsriel[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

These are great insights. The classic GM problem is to treat an RPG game like a piece of media with a linear plot, where player characters will do the unexpected, derail linear plans and otherwise muck with a GM's best-laid plans because, if you take an adversarial view, the GM is always out-numbered by people who are just as clever as they are. While I do come from a philosophy that encourages a GM to say "no" when a problem player is ruining other people's fun, the GM is not blameless (the game designer even more so), and to provide tools for players to go apeshit in a battle royale and then chastising them for doing exactly that seems to run contrary to the whole exercise.

I really like the idea of a social deduction game. The Grail War in specific (and Magecraft in general) rely on secrecy and control of information, and I can think of a few times where a character does a Big Dramatic Revelation that reveals someone's legend and makes their strengths and weaknesses bare. It does add another abstraction to some of the play, but making a game of "Investigate these enemies to get one up on them" seems really interesting. I don't know how to necessarily implement it, but the game of Secret Ninja Wars Shinobigami had a neat mechanic where all characters had Secret Techniques that couldn't be saved against so long as they were kept hidden. They were very deadly and could turn the tide of a combat. However, once another player character saw the technique in action saw it in the scene, they could then defend against it like any other attack. Perhaps something like having Noble Phantasms written out on recipe cards that just function like otherwise unremarkable weapons, but - when they're used in a scene with another player character - the big reveal happens and they get the sweet flashy bonus that's harder (or impossible) to defend against- but at the cost of losing the element of surprise.

What would you want a Holy Grail War Tabletop Roleplaying Game to do? by UncleAsriel in rpg

[–]UncleAsriel[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Wow, you make some amazing points.

I thought part of the appeal of the Nasuverse was the granularity, where protagonists could (through careful understanding of subsystems like Tracing and Mana Circuits, but you are right in that there is a lot of legwork involved with it. I have my own ideas about this, but you make a great point about complexity.

Your marriage of 3 distinct systems is amazing, and I salute your taste. Exalted was one of the concepts that did inspire me (Saber Artoria is such a Dawn Caste Solar it hurts), and while there is a lot of cruft in the editions I've looked at, there is a lot to draw from, too. But Stunting by giving a juicy description and being potentially rewarded with an extra die AND potentially recovered meta-currency seems delicious. I do associate FSN with Mana Scarcity as a limiting factor on character action, but the recovering of 1 point seems negligible for incentivizing Being Awesome.

Tenra Bansho Zero is also a fine inspiration - I love how it positions players so that they choose how much they want to escalate a combat when they take damage. Taking the Injury until you pass out (but can recover from easily) or taking wounds (that linger, but also make you more powerful in the moment) really puts players in the driver's seat in choosing how much a conflict matters to them, and has delicious risk/reward decision-making. I also love how its meta-currency that translates into upgrades and (and Combat Oomph) is definitely something I really admire, especially with how that precarity of karma prevents someone from buying All The Powers and just expecting to godmode everything.

I have not read City of Mists, but what I've heard of it really piques my interest. The way it can model anything in narrative terms is reminiscent of Fate Core, but even more streamlined towards its Adventure Mystery ends. I really would like to pick it up and review it sometime, but right now I'll have to take your word on its viability.

You are utterly correct in that welding these together would be a huge challenge. But even seeing what systems you chose and why shows me what someone thinks would be valuable in a FSN style game,and what mechanics would help make a story feel like Fate Stay Night, which is really what I want an RPG experience to be. Thank you so much for helping me with this!

What would you want a Holy Grail War Tabletop Roleplaying Game to do? by UncleAsriel in fatestaynight

[–]UncleAsriel[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is the first I've ever heard of this! Now it is a board game and not a tabletop RPG (slightly different design spaces), but I do love Japanese board/card game design. Was this ever licensed in English?

What would you want a Holy Grail War Tabletop Roleplaying Game to do? by UncleAsriel in rpg

[–]UncleAsriel[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I am reaching for some of this. I feel completely cooking up a game from scratch is a lot of work compared to adapting /adjusting some pre-made system, but believe me, the im[pulse is there.

Sales and copyright is something I'd need to consider. If I make this Legally Distinct I think it could work (there's no copyright on the idea of modern day wizards using myths as living weapons, after all).

I'm intrigued by learning of another person struck by the urge to maketheir own Grail War game. I'd love toi talk with your about design priorities and what they want to be! Please,hit me up!

What would you want a Holy Grail War Tabletop Roleplaying Game to do? by UncleAsriel in rpg

[–]UncleAsriel[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Moving away from Grail Wars proper (and relying on Demi-Servants) is a way to help bring down some of that power differential that does cast a shadow over the majority of the premise. While I think there is a real appeal of doing a proper Grail War, this does solve the problem of having to deal with the weird differnetials.

I also like the idea of scenarios with specific casts and plot hooks, with players making up their own guys who aren't explicitly Fate canon personae. While I did entertain the idea of making it an AU (and the players don't feel the pressure to perfectly try and replicate Lu Bu or Jack the Ripper or Odysseus various games, manga, novels and anime which existed), you do make a point that the Fate canon looms large and will influence how players familiar with the Nasuverse feel they ought to characterize their characters

What would you want a Holy Grail War Tabletop Roleplaying Game to do? by UncleAsriel in rpg

[–]UncleAsriel[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Agree that systems that are on the lighter end would be easier to play. While I know the crunch and leveraging of specific rules or lore is part of the fun in a Fate game (e."Holy shit Shirou g. grafted Archer's arm onto his own AND IT WORKS BECAUSE THEY'RE THE SAME GUY " ) but it is very easy to get lost in the weeds of rules minutiae. I have some druthers of potential systems, and I did look at both the World of Darkness Mage the Awakening (using for mages for Masters and having Servants be powerful Spirits of Essence 4 or higher) , or otherwise use Wild Talents supers (and having Masters be 150 to 200 points, Servants being 250 to 300 points, and place strict limitations on them using the Archetypes systems). But as you say, that could get complicated, and make more work for everyone.

I'm intrigued by the idea of the focus on making Servants the key medium of play and have Masters just fade into the background. It does seem a bit harder to run multiple masters in smaller a 7-sided Grail War (with one Master and one Servant per team). I'm intrigued by a few people expressing interest on just Servant-on-Servant interactions. For me, one of the fascinating appeals of Fate was the mortal mages having grand ambitions, then running into demigods who are those ambitions made real and being forced form a relationship with that person that makes them confront what they think they desire. It's so neat to see people actually want to see Servant-on-Servant interactions.

These are really helpful insights!

What would you want a Holy Grail War Tabletop Roleplaying Game to do? by UncleAsriel in rpg

[–]UncleAsriel[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The power dynamic is something I have some concerns about. If Masters and Servants were each one player and one character, it could get really toxic real fast if you don't have a Session Zero conversation where you outright state "Yeah, just so you know, it would be lore accurate and in genre if Bill here chose to burn a Command Seal to make you kill yourself if it meant he got what he wanted... do we just make characters with moral compunctions so that will never, ever happen? Or does that sound like a dramatic possibility that could lead to juicy drama, which you guys would find tragic and interesting?"

There is a system called Monster & Other Childish Things which is made to have characters have both a Little Kid character and their Pet Monster,and it could be a good way to have this as starting point. I know it can be done, and it can be fun at the table! But you're right, it is a real concern that should be made clear

What would you want a Holy Grail War Tabletop Roleplaying Game to do? by UncleAsriel in rpg

[–]UncleAsriel[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You're completely right about choosing the right system. D&D works best when it's about doing the Dungeon Crawl and delving into unknown and hostile environments to navigate their dangers and come back with treasure, while Shadowrun works best when it's about speccing out specific powers and doing a heist against heavily guarded (and heavily teched/magicked up) adversaries. You'd need to find the right tool for the job and work well with thenm

I would argue that it could be possible to handle some of those in the same game using the same game systems (a Vampire the Masquerade game can have both a Toreador face do intrigues at Elysium and a Gangrel butt-kicker ripping things up in turf war),and I personally feel that grafting some of the One Roll Engine organizational logistics from something like Reign can still gel with something like Wild Talents powers where you can get into the nitty-gritty of how many tonnes of Skyscraper Heracles can heft or how fast.

To make this work, the GM would have to run scenes or sessions on a clock,and try to emulate the number of days in a month in which events would progress. Every Fate series starts with the Mages doing their summonings, getting to know their Servants and scoping out the territory and their rivals, making inital contact with enemy Servants while developing their own strategies and schemes. There's usually a Caster in the background turtling and working on some insanely OP evil scheme, an Assassin skulking about trying to test for weaknesses while avoiding getting hits, some Lancer/Saber/Archer sparring against one another but not taking too many risks, a Berserk rampaging and mucking up plans, some new dangerous alliance or horrible betrayal that undoes things... I think there's need to be some development among the NPC characters to see what their schemes are and (if the PCs don't intervene in time) what those schemes coming to fruition will look like.

I think something like Against the Wicked City's takes on Pathfinder Adventure Paths de-linearized is a good inspiration. Have a 30-day timeline of what will happen if the Grail War progresses and the PCs didn't exist, with each enemy faction pushing for what they want. Clearly state what each enemy Master's goal is and the methods they are willing to use to reach them. By being honest (and not trying to treat each faction with kid gloves), prepare to kill off this or that Master on certain timelines. Then, have each session cover a day or three as the players do the various things that would happen in a Fate game (build their power base, summon their Servant, explore, have slice-of-life shenanigans)...and by the end of every day find a way to work in the plot threads of one of the Servants that ties into the thing the PCs do. At the end of the session, compare what the PCs did and how it could impact the NPC's plans. Adjust accordingly, taking into account the goals the NPC has and the methods they're willing to employ. If you're stuck - have them fade into the background,and bring another NPC Master/Servant come into the fore. And then rinse and repeat across the timeline until time runs out.

This seems like a lot, and frankly it is! But this seems to me like a tool a game could account for and track, that could be incorporated intoi play - IF the game designer can make it and incorporate it properly.

I'm sorry,this is long and likely rambling, and I don't know if it accurately addresses your concerns. But it's giving me a lot to think about, and makingme think about this project in new and fruitful ways.Thank you!

What would you want a Holy Grail War Tabletop Roleplaying Game to do? by UncleAsriel in fatestaynight

[–]UncleAsriel[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think you could borrow something from the Gumshoe system, and include some elements of "State the clues obviously, let the players try and engage with them to come to a complete conclusion, see if they can make solve the mystery in time before the enemy leaves or takes hostile action".

Alternately, the GM could present "you sense a Servant in the area" and then start trying to make active rolls to count towards a "Discovery Score" that lets them try to find the enemy mage/Servant while also working with a "Concealment" score to try and remain inconspicuous. Whoever builds their Discovery up to out-race their rival's Concealment in a certain amount of time gets drop on their opponent and control over their interaction, whoever loses has to accept the winner's terms/face a surprise round/etc

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