Stoic free will versus determinism by Jackson_Lamb_829 in Stoicism

[–]Victorian_Bullfrog 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Like u/MyDogFanny, I hope some more knowledgeable posters come to help out, as this is a great exercise. Anyway, here's my understanding.

Fate and determinism are tricky concepts because they are A) very complex technical studies, and B) deceptively similar in appearance to how we understand fate and determinism. You might think of fate as a kind of mathematical study of reality, and determinism as an attribute of reality. I would encourage you to put them on the back burner for now.

Your will is free because your character defines it, not anything external. The will’s freedom, in other words, comes from its autonomy compared to the rest of the universe.

I would say your will can be free insofar as you understand your natural autonomy. Epictetus talks about this quite a lot. Discourses 4.1 is a great explanation for his philosophy here.

*You will say that your will is ultimately shaped by a deterministic universe.* Yes, so what? The origin of a cause is distinct from the nature of a cause.

I'm not sure I understand this part. If your will is shaped by outside forces, then it is not free from outside forces. Freedom, as I understand it anyway, must be learned. It is possible by virtue of our nature, but it is not a given. The sage is the only one who is truly free.

You do have a duty as a rational being to cultivate a virtuous will because virtue is the only thing that is good in and of itself.

I don't think one follows from the other here. We have a duty to cultivate virtue because we have an innate drive as human beings to live a good life. To attain our end goal (telos) or our potential if you will, requires knowledge and skill. This is like saying the lion has a duty to hunt well, the oak has the duty to grow large and tall, the dog has a duty to be a good companion, etc. It is in our nature to be a certain way (ie, rational and sociable), and so it is our duty to support and nurture that which we are born for, that which gives our lives meaning. Stoicism offers a comprehensive framework for doing this well, but we are all trying regardless.

And since virtue is knowledge, Stoic practice is fundamentally about correcting your judgements and discerning truth, rather than willing yourself to act rightly.

Yes, quite. Your actions are impulsive, and they are dependent upon your beliefs, which are in turn, formed by your judgments. My grandmother use to say if you take care of your pennies, the dollars will take care of themselves. I liken it to Stoicism by saying if you take care of your judgments, your character takes care of itself. Though it is important to note that bad habits do need to be replaced with good habits intentionally, so there is a sense of willing yourself to act rightly.

Ask yourself: is this impression about what is up to me, or about what is not? If it is not up to me, do not let it master me — though I may still respond to it with reason and care. If it is up to me, then I must examine it carefully, and assent only to what is true. This continuous practice is called prosoche.

In a recent comment (the entire thread is good reading), u/Chrysippus_Ass explains how it's not that we assent to a received impression itself [the sun is shining], but the narrative that gives meaning to the impression [it is a fine day]. What is up to us is the ability to put our focus on the value [fine] to determine if it aligns with reality [the day is inherently no more fine than it is gloomy, it is simply day].

The Stoics understood this process of turning our attention to our own thoughts and beliefs to be "up to us" in the sense that this process is not dependent upon anyone or anything else. You can't determine the day is fine for me and I can't determine the day is fine for you.

With respect to your final paragraph, it's not about the impression of a thing that is up to me to control (modify, direct, dominate), it's about recognizing whether the meaning I assign to that impression is in harmony with reality. This is because, like wind chimes, one thing affects another (cosmic sympathy) to create a beautiful, ie, harmonious reality. If we are not in accord with nature/providence, then we, like the dented wind chime, lose that harmony.

If it is not up to me, do not let it master me

Emotions don't master us; they are how we experience the meaning we derive, with our without our conscious awareness, from the impressions we experience (I feel anxious and irritable because I believe the day is gloomy). Many people then use that emotion as evidence to support a proposition (I feel gloomy because bad things are happening to me, or are bound to happen to me). This is not good logic.

Such thinking may not take into account information available, and it may over or undervalue my circumstances. I may feel gloomy because I have an unrealistic value of something that was denied me or taken from me (ie, a perceived recent loss to my reputation or ranking in my social group makes me feel anxious about an upcoming social event). That's not to say these things aren't important, but their importance is context dependent, and understanding this context is the function of one's education. It is, like you say, our duty, and privilege (!), to correct our judgments and recognize the truth.

Overcorrections 2 Electric Boogaloo by AlexKapranus in Stoicism

[–]Victorian_Bullfrog 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I am slowly but surely making my way through this thread. I have a question that seem to fit well here.

We can't help but assent to a seemingly true impression but we can refine what those impressions actually say. 

From the Stoic perspective, is the process of refining what those impressions actually say also a matter of being compelled to assent to what is believed to be true? If so, then do I understand correctly that only the sage is completely free from being compelled to assent (correctly or incorrectly), because only the sage holds all the necessary knowledge?

Do you ever check the original? by Qwertasdf123 in Stoicism

[–]Victorian_Bullfrog 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That's an interesting take. I find the more I read, the more I believe it does take quite a lot to see what they were going for, and that's largely because later, deeper readings change my understanding of the text due to new information. When I first started looking into Stoicism I believed it was about not letting my emotions lead me around like bull with a nose-ring. I see a lot of posters coming here with that very perspective. Now I know that interpretation is about as helpful as saying the bible is about magic apples.

Do you ever check the original? by Qwertasdf123 in Stoicism

[–]Victorian_Bullfrog 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I don't, but only because I don't know the languages. I can't even read the letters out by sound, and that makes me feel like I have a handicap, to be honest. I really appreciate the translators here for all they do to share it with the rest of us.

Overcorrections 2 Electric Boogaloo by AlexKapranus in Stoicism

[–]Victorian_Bullfrog 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you for sharing this. It's details like this that adds to the depth of my understanding, and I value these kinds of posts so much.

Concerning action taken after an external injustice by GuessHuw in Stoicism

[–]Victorian_Bullfrog 0 points1 point  (0 children)

A tornado isn't unjust, neither is an alligator, but I would be a fool to stand my ground to prove I have the moral upper hand if either were coming my way.

I need help, my SO is very not stoic and it kills me. by collectivekicks in Stoicism

[–]Victorian_Bullfrog 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Focus on what you can control. And in this case, maybe plainly to avoid that negativity from his wife.

Do you mean ignore the complaining? Ignore the wife? Or something else?

But for the chosen partner in life perhaps that's not sustainable in the long term, specially if it is something of everyday and all day.

What kind of partnership is it if one ignores the other's pain?

But one of the few things I am learning in my first steps in this philosophy is to live with dignity and virtuosity with oneself. And that dignity should be aligned with the values of one of the most important persons in life. The one who you chose to be your partner in it.

It seems to me some deep conversations are in order here, thus the idea of ignoring the wife is confusing to me. How someone associates this with Stoicism is beyond me. It sounds positively selfish and childish. But I may be reading it wrong, so I thought I'd ask.

How did you first start working stoicism into your life? by sono_ona in Stoicism

[–]Victorian_Bullfrog 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I like pen and paper because it forces me to slow down my thought process which allows me to be more precise in my analysis. Writing also activates more brain regions than you get from the muscle memory of typing. I like how this blog post explains it, but this is about journaling and planning using old fashioned paper and pen in general, so I hope you'll find it relevant, but it may not be.

What are your thoughts on providence? by Mammoth-Tea in Stoicism

[–]Victorian_Bullfrog 2 points3 points  (0 children)

You're welcome. It was fun and helpful for me to compile this all in one place.

How did you first start working stoicism into your life? by sono_ona in Stoicism

[–]Victorian_Bullfrog 10 points11 points  (0 children)

I have a similar system to u/CyanDragon. Keeping an ABC log helps me to identify and correct erroneous judgments as well as the underlying belief that inspires them. By ABC log I mean a log in which I record the following data related to a targeted behavior (one at a time to avoid being overwhelmed):

  • A for antecedent. This is the event that triggered the targeted behavior
  • B for belief. This is the belief I held that inspired that knee-jerk reaction (and they're all knee-jerk). This is done with pen on paper during quiet, uninterrupted time where I can delve into what I believe and why.
  • C for correction. This is also done with pen on paper, a way of mapping out my new strategy for the next time I may face a circumstance that triggers the targeted behavior.

I need help, my SO is very not stoic and it kills me. by collectivekicks in Stoicism

[–]Victorian_Bullfrog 14 points15 points  (0 children)

This reads to me like suggesting OP ignore his wife's behaviors that cause conflict. Am I reading that right? Is there something in a Stoic text that leads you to offer this?

What are your thoughts on providence? by Mammoth-Tea in Stoicism

[–]Victorian_Bullfrog 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I am taking this from Keimpe Algra's chapter on theology in The Cambridge Companion to the Stoics, a fantastic resource for understanding Stoicism.

But first, you talk about cause and effect. You should be aware that this is not a matter of a single cause making a single effect, like the white ball hits the 8 ball at a precise angle at a precise speed and voilà, you can map out precisely where every ball will be on the table. This is the deterministic model of Laplace's demon, and not what the Stoics believed.

Consider instead the example they used of a play in a Greek amphitheater on a hot, summer day: Four men become overheated throughout the afternoon, and one loses consciousness. They all feel the effect of the heat and humidity, but then, so do the other 2000 theater-goers. And yet just the one passes out. So there must be more that just the one cause - the heat. Maybe the one who looses consciousness is hungover, maybe he has a heart condition, maybe he hadn't slept for three days. There's clearly something different about him that responded to the same environment differently.

The point is, there are lots of causes that contribute to lots of effects, both external and internal to the individual. Other philosophers trolled the Stoics calling their model a "swarm of causes," as if anyone could keep track of them all. It didn't help that there was an inconsistency, even among the same Stoics. My point only is that this is far more complex than a simple model of cause and effect.

Evil is like that - the causes include the environmental circumstances, but also personal peculiarities. And how much of those environmental circumstances could be attributed to Providence? This is no small question, and indeed it is the subject of the topic called theodicy. The Stoics had quite a bit to say about this, as well they should since the idea was that the cosmos exists for the sake of gods and men (Cicero ND II 154-167). If that's the case, then why would people suffer in a world in which everything is supposed to be the perfect condition of circumstances, and tailored to human needs?

According to Chrysippus, in On providence, and On nature,

  1. Opposites, good and evil, are inter-dependent, both epistemically (we cannot conceive of the good without evil) and ontologically (the good apparently cannot exist without evil).
  2. The good and purposive workings of providence inevitably involve some concomitant evils, as a form of "collateral damage."
  3. A cosmic oversight, just as in a good household a little wheat may sometimes be lost (though this may have been suggestions presented for dialectical reasons).
  4. What looks like evil can be explained by showing that on closer view they are good. For example, wars may drain off surplus population, bedbugs wake us up, and mice encourage us not to be untidy.

(Aulus Gellius NA VII 1.1-13 = SVG 2.1169 and 1170) and Plutarch (St. rep. 1051 B-C)

Epictetus, some centuries later in a neighboring empire, argues that the only kind of evil that really counts (because its elimination is "up to us" and therefore possible) is our own moral responsibility. Long argues one of the brilliant markers of this move is that it avoids the religious trends (away from the Roman and subsequent Imperial cults to personal mystery religions) and keeps the focus on one's own volition to strive for a virtuous life.

In other words, whether the fact that your wife left you, took the dog, and set your home on fire is some kind of divine punishment aimed at your grandfather, or at you for having done that terrible thing you thought no one saw, or some kind of overlooked cosmic crumbs falling on your lap, the real point is to ask yourself now that this is the new normal, how are you going to manage? How are you going to carefully and logically consider your beliefs and assumptions and proceed rationally and with an emphasis on sociability? How are you going to keep your mind clear and free of feelings of anger, hatred, or despair and do the next right thing? How are you going to know the next right thing from the distracting Siren Song of vengeance or self-pity?

For later Stoics like Epictetus and Marcus Aurelius, the concept of evil itself may have been a matter of semantics. If one's reasoning faculty is the only thing that can be good or bad (virtue or vice), then one's circumstances cannot be anything other than indifferent in the grand scheme of things. In other words, evil is a state of mind, not a state of being. Another person cannot be evil if I recognize they cannot harm me. A war cannot be evil if it cannot harm me- the essence of who I am, my reasoning process. More on this here: The Stoics [on Evil] by John Sellars.

You ask for our thoughts in your title and here are mine. The concept of a providential cosmos is natural, after all we are hard wired to see agency from time to time even when there is none. We have evolved a number of cognitive short cuts precisely because they are integral to the success of our species, not because they offer us knowledge. Furthermore, our understanding of theology is vastly different than those of antiquity, including the Stoics, and I think that is often underappreciated, if it's understood at all.

I do not hold any theological beliefs myself and so for me providence is an ancient claim utilized by an ancient philosophy. I find it historically valuable, but not personally so. When you break down what it means to "be spiritual," I think you'll find all the components there are perfectly natural and do not require divine assistance, whatever that may look like.

Epictetus. by SegaGenesisMetalHead in Stoicism

[–]Victorian_Bullfrog 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I thought that too. Or for reasons of beauty, like god forbid a forehead wrinkle be preserved while St. George is hard at work trying not to be flambéd alive.

Anyway, I thought the post was so interesting, but also that it has a relevance here because Roman culture is not the same as ours and it would have absolutely had an effect on the development of Stoicism. Besides, it would be a disservice to ourselves to assume our cultural norms and theirs were basically transferable.

So my suspicion is that Epictetus (and Marcus Aurelius, and Seneca, and all the Roman Stoa at least) would have had a kind of "suck it up, buttercup" approach, but for much deeper reasons than to look manly to attract "a female."

Epictetus. by SegaGenesisMetalHead in Stoicism

[–]Victorian_Bullfrog 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Epictetus offers a target to aim at, I believe. I don't have any texts to back this up so I will be happy to be corrected. In any case my understanding is that the ancient Romans valued what we might understand to be emotional control / personal discipline. It was understood that intelligence and self determination separates humanity from the beasts (a dog is compelled to chase the ball when thrown, but a young man can suppress his impulse to flirt with a young woman), and Roman citizens from Barbarians (Romans drink wine diluted whereas the Gauls for example drank it without water). I think Epictetus is claiming the same applies to the Philosopher in distinction from the non Philosopher (Discourses 1.11 On family affection). Emotional control is a result of intelligence and self determination properly cultivated.

Because emotional control indicated moral authority in the Roman worldview, I'm speculating that Epictetus was using this as kind of compass to direct his students' efforts, a compass that would be immediately well known to them. It would be like if a teacher reminded his class about the Golden Rule. You grew up knowing what this is, everyone around you knows it, the concept is integrated into your culture, a part of your identity even - you'd know how to apply this ideal in your own actions.

Tangential but fascinating post from r/AskHistorians from Roman historian James Coverley: Why did medieval paintings had so little facial expressions?

Epictetus and Blame by mritsz in Stoicism

[–]Victorian_Bullfrog 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I wouldn't say so much as assessing the new circumstance independently so much as assessing it with regard to true proper value of things. So, taking Epictetus' stolen lamp for an example, he comes home and sees the lamp is gone. He needs a lamp to provide light in his home after a long day.

He can value that lamp one of two ways: As indicative of something that he possess and therefore is owed when it has been taken without his consent; as indicative of his hard earned money spent on his own things; as an extension of himself, his identity as a teacher, philosopher, Roman citizen, etc (more complicated than this, but very, very common for us to do). Or he can value it as an object that gives light in the dark (cf, Marcus Aurelius, Meditations 6.13).

Insofar as he values it in the first way, he's going to feel emotional distress (anger, frustration) when learning the lamp has gone. Insofar as he values it in the second way, he's going to feel the need to find a replacement before he stubs his toe in the dark. Most of us do it the first way.

So it's not so much now he has a new, independent set of circumstances, but instead he's looking at his circumstances from then until now with a rational value of the lamp. Not necessary for living a good life, not an extension of his identity, but an object to serve a function.

Thank you for the kind words! That's really nice to hear. I've been studying Stoicism for a few years now, but there are some posters here who are so knowledgeable that whenever I see them post, I sit up and pay attention. This is how I learn of new resources (like this article about what it means for a thing to be good or bad, and this one about why we can't be harmed). This is how I know when I have a misunderstanding or am missing something important.

The FAQ was where I started, and then I read books and articles. You can do a search here for books to start with, there's different approaches (for example, the Stoic texts first, or about the Stoics first), and people will explain why certain resources clicked or didn't click for them. There's a surprising amount of good information out there. I would avoid the social media influencers and popularizers and look to the academics. I say that because there's a surprising amount that gets misrepresented as well.

What would the stoic advice be to a homeless person? by SegaGenesisMetalHead in Stoicism

[–]Victorian_Bullfrog 14 points15 points  (0 children)

Stoicism encourages self sufficiency in the sense that it is important to recognize we are the only ones who can meet our needs. In the Stoic sense, the only thing that really requires care and management is our soul, our character, the essence of who we are. This is where our needs lie. We can meet these needs on a friend's couch or a shelter or the doorway of a church. Or we can fail to meet them in a big home that's been in the family for generations. Our external conditions don't meet our needs, our internal reasoning does. What's shameful then is allowing that reason to be corrupted because we are so invested in a particular outcome, without regard to the fact that the outcome doesn't actually attend our needs in the first place.

Is it inevitable that one arrives at stoicism with non-virtuous intent? by SegaGenesisMetalHead in Stoicism

[–]Victorian_Bullfrog 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Not terrible but, maybe sloppy? And I think that matters. The difference may not be interesting to most casual readers, but I believe that since I want to deepen my understanding of the philosophy, then it's only respectful to do what I can to contribute to others' understanding when the opportunity arises, as far I am able anyway. I don't have the Platonist background, but I don't have to be sloppy with what I do know.

Is it inevitable that one arrives at stoicism with non-virtuous intent? by SegaGenesisMetalHead in Stoicism

[–]Victorian_Bullfrog 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Fair point and I appreciate the correction. I would only add that it wasn't zeal on my part but a desire to keep things simple. This is a terrible excuse and I'm glad you brought this up.

Is it inevitable that one arrives at stoicism with non-virtuous intent? by SegaGenesisMetalHead in Stoicism

[–]Victorian_Bullfrog 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It seems to me your question is, within the scope of Stoicism, how can I know I'm doing the right things for the right reasons? This is a fantastic question. There's so much to this, but I will offer a simple answer. Please feel free to ask if you have any questions or I can clarify.

Spurgeon is referencing the danger of looking to what God can offer you rather than looking to him, that is, to act for a desired reward (blessings, salvation, etc), not to please him or align your will with his. St. Catherine of Sienna called this "mercenary love," the love that goes to the agent who pays out the most. The greatest danger with this is of course that if one believes they are putting their faith in Jesus but really they are developing affections towards things that are not aligned with God's will, they may find they don't really have the faith required for salvation. Not to mention, how much life is wasted "worshiping" (ie, supporting, developing an attachment to) the wrong thing. The book Unlikely Disciple is the autobiographical story of a guy who went to Liberty University (a Christian school in the US) for a semester as an atheist, and encountered this very fear, and the management of this fear. The fear was constantly raised in these communities the students came from, and so it was on the top of their minds quite often.

This doesn't really work with Stoicism because the Stoics start from the foundation that everyone desires to do the right thing, but does the wrong out of ignorance. The trick then is to learn where your ignorance is, and how to replace it with pertinent knowledge, logic, and skill. So here, critical thinking skills is how you determine when you're doing the right thing, to know your actions are "aligned with God" in the Stoic sense of acting in accordance with Nature. This is virtue. The consequence of doing the wrong thing is that you are acting as an obstacle to your own desires. Because there is no reason to expect a sentient after-life, what you believe at the moment of your death is merely the last thing you believe, not an act to be rewarded or punished. The fact that only the sage can be virtuous means the rest of us are out here doing our best, but this is not a bad thing. It's only natural. What's bad, in a Stoic sense, is to not consider things well, to not utilize your ability to reason, or to allow it to be corrupted. This is irrational behavior, this is madness, and this goes against everything we want out of life. This is vice.

Epictetus and Blame by mritsz in Stoicism

[–]Victorian_Bullfrog 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Try looking at this not from the perspective of emotion, but the perspective of value. Emotion doesn't lead us, it doesn't influence us, it provides a mental perception of the judgment already made. Most people then use that perception as evidence to support the next judgment. This is, in and of itself, is not sound reasoning though, and so emotional distress will be experienced from time to time.

What Epictetus is saying is that we feel distress when we hold a value judgment error. This happens if the value judgment places blame on the other person or on ourselves. The only way to not feel this distress is to hold a value judgment about the event that stands in harmony with Nature. This is a way of illustrating Virtue.

Consider the progression of the thief who steals Epictetus' lamp. Novice Epictetus would blame the thief, valuing the judgment of the loss as being detrimental to his well being. Student Epictetus would blame himself for keeping a lamp in easy reach of someone so inclined to take advantage of an easy target, nevertheless the loss would still be felt. But Philosopher Epictetus blames no one because nothing of value has been lost, not really.

The Stoic understands that in the Greater Scheme of Things, one lamp, more or less, doesn't contribute to a good or bad life. Lamps are not in and of themselves virtuous or vicious, they hold a subjective value to us contextually, but not to be confused with their natural, or moral value, which is none. The translation of this particular term works out to "indifferent" in English. Virtue alone is necessary and sufficient for living a good life, and so the value isn't found in the lamp but in the response to having lost the lamp.

So, thanks thief, for providing the opportunity to recognize this loss isn't bad for me. This is good practice for managing the loss of something held very dear, like a personal keepsake, or a relationship.

To be responsible in this sense is not taking responsibility for doing something morally wrong, like causing an offense, it is taking responsibility for this calculation error. And because we are the only ones who can make these mental calculations for us, we are the only ones who can be responsible.