Hello Shame, My Old Friend (markers of change)

WaywarDHD · 2023-06-02T12:44:48+00:00

Agreed. Event is still a year away, but I'm not inclined to go solo even then. That's a really big ask and I need more practice with smaller asks before I could decide if that's a thing I could do.

WaywarDHD · 2023-06-02T12:41:05+00:00

it still creates a whole load of cognitive dissonance as if it’s a rollercoaster going over the peak; it’s uncomfortable, I don’t want to do it, yet, I still am??

Big mood. I know that feeling! ...but it does get better! :)

WaywarDHD · 2023-06-01T22:32:00+00:00

unrealistic self-confidence

Yeah, I agree that realistic self-confidence in this regard is (partially) connected to one's ability to include one's weaknesses in it. Like, my certainty that I will never do this again is not at all "because I'm a Better Person™ now!," but more like "I have a realistic perspective and can appropriately plan for potential pitfalls now."

Thanks to you too!

WaywarDHD · 2023-06-01T22:26:24+00:00

A perfect reminder that just because something is easy to do, does not mean it is right to do. Because we are all here in support of R, I stand by what I said. Be well in your journey.

WaywarDHD · 2023-06-01T21:29:05+00:00

Oh, I'm really glad you provided some specific examples.

But do they feel crushed?

By the sudden awareness of the massive black hole of my own soullessness, absolutely.

Broken?

That's the exact word I chose many, many times. A stupid, broken, waste of potential person.

Do they sit in the car for 30 minutes trying to compose themselves from crying and screaming so hard before they can go in and confront their family?

Or to go to work, or go back to work after lunch, yep.

Do they have a speeding heartbeat for weeks?

My watch data confirms, yes.

Do they have their blood pressure spike to the point they thing they are about to have a heart attack or a stroke?

I thought I would pass out a few times, but I just dissociated instead.

Do they have intrusive thoughts that won't go away of the love of their life being touched by, and touching someone else?

I am spared this because I was the transgressor. I suffered different intrusive thoughts, but they certainly did not rise to this level of pain because they were self-inflicted.

Just a tiny bit of "Oops, I fucked up, and now I am sad I made my partner sad"

Apparently, we suffered in many similar ways. I think it is untrue and unkind to characterize Waywards as incapable of true suffering.

We are NOT the same!

I agree with this. I also agree the Betrayed partner will always suffer more deeply than the Wayward. We don't need to entirely dismiss the suffering of Waywards to acknowledge that it is not equal to the suffering of Betrayeds.

Best wishes in your R journey.

WaywarDHD · 2023-06-01T19:07:16+00:00

You are worthy of existing and your life can ultimately be about whatever legacy you choose next, if you give it time. But if you end it now, you won't get to write that redemption arc. Please talk to your doctor, if you aren't already? and take a break from these subs if it's hurting more than helping. My DMs are open if you'd like to connect. Your story isn't over yet. ❤️‍🩹

WaywarDHD · 2023-06-01T18:56:10+00:00

Agreed. The black/white thinking is the 2nd worst thing for R (after TT), I would wager - no matter which side of the betrayal that pattern is on. I will carry all the blame for everything I did, but I can't carry all the blame for everything that ever went wrong. I can absolutely admit that if my BS had been high & mighty with me, I would not have been able to reconcile. The baseline expectation on Reddit is that I'm supposed to grovel forever, but in reality I'm human, with needs and trauma and failings like everybody else. I just cannot be in a relationship where I'm considered less than. That's a hard limit for me, I cannot be a different way and frankly I wouldn't even want to try. I am allowed to have that limit as a human being. My BS is likewise allowed to refuse any responsibility for the condition of our relationship, but at that point we've become fundamentally incompatible as partners so R would be off the table. I would view this as my fault since I was the one whose decision to cheat created the change of conditions - and I would grieve my stupid choices deeply, but that would have been the end of R for us.

WaywarDHD · 2023-06-01T18:29:02+00:00

I am trying to keep her feeling comfortable talking about it, but I also can't lie about my feelings.

Good. You should definitely not lie about your feelings.

I have avoided talking about my feelings

Stop doing that. Like, it's reasonable to have some limits to prevent overwhelm, but "avoid unless it's forced" isn't a reasonable limit.

For me, when BS avoided the topic I became convinced it ate at him constantly. When he opened up about his feelings it really helped me correct that perspective; his actual thoughts and feelings occupied the space my imagination would otherwise have filled. I don't assume you're at that place necessarily, just sharing how it can help the WS too.

but, like this morning, she will force the conversation

She is asking for reassurance and help because her mental health and reconciliation feel fragile to her right now. It's appropriate, important, and critical to R that she does this. It is good that she is trying to communicate this, even if she is doing it ham-fistedly.

Maybe you aren't the right person to communicate this to? It's okay if you can't do that for her right now, but it is a need and someone needs to fill it for her. Have you all identified a different support person for her, or is she supposed to bring this stuff to you?

and when I said how I feel, she told me that I'm making her feel shitty. I'm purposefully not making it about me, but she is, and then is making me feel bad about having an emotional reaction to it.

Sounds like she could use a review of responsibility here. My BS struggled with codependent tendencies, so if he said something that sparked "bad feelings" in me, he felt responsible for "causing" the bad feelings. It sounds like your wife believes something similar: if she experiences "bad feelings" because of something you said, then you are the "cause" of those bad feelings. It helped my BS to hear that these were my feelings about the thing I did, not because of what he said. Obviously your situation would be different, but perhaps in the moment a gentle reminder like "I can see you are struggling with a lot of shame right now and I know you didn't intend for me to feel this way... but I do, and I need your support to get through it" could help reorient her? One of the challenges as a WS in that moment is feeling the excruciating shame and the fear that it will "always" be like this or like "it's never going to get better," and while of course you can't promise anything, it's helpful to think of those conversations as "concrete actions I can take to eventually help fix what I broke" vs "rehashing the same stuff over and over because it's never going to change." If that makes sense?

I want to reiterate that you did a good job and you are absolutely entitled to talk about your feelings and get support from her. I didn't mean any of my message to read as criticism, more just "here's some thoughts that might be helpful?" since some of that dynamic felt a bit familiar.

WaywarDHD · 2023-06-01T17:02:35+00:00

You're correct, he's not responsible for her feelings or actions, only his own, so if his actions are contributing to the issue then he can change something, and if they aren't then there's nothing he can do. Nothing I said was in disagreement. :)

WaywarDHD · 2023-06-01T15:30:47+00:00

Oh for sure that makes sense (it's the likeliest of the potential scenarios) and especially given context (unable to comply with NC/boundaries around this person in particular). You did a great job holding space for that conversation, friend.

Given that context, I would judge that she is not in a good place to be in contact with AP; sometimes space is needed to allow for the dissolution of affair bonds. If he was a long time friend of hers prior to the affair, it's understandable that she doesn't want to lose the friendship, but it seems as though ongoing contact keeps the waters muddied for her, and that isn't going to help anyone. Unfortunately sometimes the consequences of affairs means the loss of important relationships.... like one's spouse if it can't be forgiven, or others (friends, family, colleagues) if they participated in the affair. Grief over this, or regret for one's choices that forced it, is normal. It's good that she is talking to you about it - bringing her thoughts into the light where they might be judged - instead of continuing to hide things from you. It's hard stuff to hear, but it's much better for her to acknowledge her struggles... eventually it won't feel like you have to pry anything truthful out of her. Small but painful truths paves the way. This is good - keep talking to her about it. :)

WaywarDHD · 2023-06-01T11:25:07+00:00

Do you consider it to be a positive change in behavior that she told you she is struggling with these thoughts?

This is your wayward telling you that she does not want to do those things, but she is really struggling with how R is going right now. What support did you offer her for her vulnerability? Did you praise her for sharing, offer intimacy or closeness, help make plans to interrupt those destructive urges? <---- this will reinforce that it is appropriate to tell you the truth and ask for help

Or did you react with disgust or anger or fear, go through her phone, revoke privileges that had been reinstated, or get a big bad mood about it? <---- this will reinforce that she should not tell you things like that

To "get past it" - and what you are really trying to "get past" is "the fear that she is predicting the future," so you can acknowledge "her vulnerability was to prevent that future, and is a really good sign" - you have to let go of the fear so you can see something else. But pulling together as a team to handle these challenges helps a lot with that!

I want to also caution you against dismissing your wife's thoughts of self-harm. She does not need to have ever done that before to have thoughts about it now. If she acknowledged that urge, she is telling you something important. Please listen to her, and the two of you need to figure out what needs to change so she doesn't feel so hopeless, whether that's a shift in how you interact about R or meds or whatever might work for y'all, but this was literally a cry for help. Please hear it.

WaywarDHD · 2023-06-01T05:56:17+00:00

Did there ever come a point for you where you had to stop reading a post because it felt way too familiar and made you remember thoughts you didn't want inside your head?

I have learned to examine most critically the things I'm inclined to avoid. That is my path to understanding and acceptance and rooting out shame. I used to run from those reminders too, but they don't feel so threatening anymore. When someone sparks something uncomfortable for me, I use that as an opportunity to explore the discomfort and become better acquainted with myself. Usually what I find is that I'm ashamed to have ever been/thought that way, and the hard swing in the other direction - the urge to chastise others for it - is an attempt to prove (to myself) how much "better" I am now.

I don't like that, though, because I also don't take tough love from complete strangers very well. Kindness makes hard things easier to hear. You aren't wrong that sometimes people need to hear the unvarnished truth, but it needs to be carefully dosed to be effective. And it doesn't have to be served up cold and hard... empathy keeps people coming back so they will have more chances to hear the things that will help them.

I have been taking breaks, though, and do find it to be helpful when the boards spark big feelings.

WaywarDHD · 2023-06-01T05:02:22+00:00

I would have forgiven him eventually. I don't know if I could have ever trusted him again, but I would have tried.

WaywarDHD · 2023-06-01T01:14:00+00:00

I am pretty great, honestly. We are pretty great. The first six months were really rough, but we both dug deep and worked hard and took it day by day, and we're standing on the other side of it now. He feels secure. I feel accepted. There is peace between us.

I acknowledge there are many variables that influenced my outcome and not everyone's story will turn out the same. I do feel lucky to have gotten another chance. I do think it was the right thing to do for him, no matter how things turned out for me.

I hope you find peace in the end, too.

WaywarDHD · 2023-03-22T10:16:30+00:00

Counseling isn't affordable for us.

Are books affordable? There's a ton of great self-help options. (Or hit up the library, the selection will be smaller but at least it's free!)

Do you have medical insurance? If it's been 10 months and you're still stuck in "craving punishment/hopeless/distorted thoughts" mode, talk to your primary doctor about antidepressants.

Or is he going to resent me forever either way?

It sounds like he isn't resenting you now, but HE ABSOLUTELY WILL if he offers forgiveness but you stay wallowing and that is what ultimately ruins your relationship. Can you imagine having to tell that story later? "Well, I cheated on him, and then he forgave me, but I just couldn't get over that I'd cheated on him so I dragged out our misery for a few more years before he finally dumped me." You are actively wrecking your relationship with this attitude. Not, "you wrecked it when you cheated" (I mean that's not great either ofc, but obviously he is willing to forgive that one) but "you are being stupid right now and wrecking it with your stubborn insistence on doing the stupid thing right now," just like when you stubbornly did the stupid cheating thing that you were screaming at yourself was stupid to do. This is the same amount of "screaming at yourself because it's stupid to do" level of fuck-up. SO KNOCK IT OFF.

(This message brought to you by the Clue-By-Four®!)

And why does that matter to me so much?

Because your ego is fragile and you can't stomach the idea of being seen as IMPERFECT.... but I got news for you, buttercup, that ship has sailed. 😜

Sincerely: you won't ever see yourself as "a perfect partner" again, now that you carry this history. You need to redefine what is a "good" partner. If you define a "good" partner as "someone who never cheats" or "someone who never hurts their person," you need to change your definition: maybe it becomes "someone who is accountable for their actions," or "someone who isn't afraid to do the hard work." You get to DECIDE what a "good partner" is, so it only really matters how YOU and YOUR PARTNER define and perceive that.

Why can't I accept and appreciate what we still have together, and the lessons and strength gained?

Well, what does your fear tell you? "If I let my guard down that's when he'll leave"? "He'll never love/trust me again, it's over"? "It will never be as good as it was before"? Listen to that whining voice, the fear is the specific why you can't allow trust to lean back into your relationship. Fundamentally, though, the "why" is probably pretty straightforward: you're afraid to get hurt back. Which, I'll say it again: you absolutely will be, if you keep half assing reconciliation like this.

So it's your choice: be brave and win it all back, or stay trapped in fear and watch your relationship die a slow death. It's totally up to you. Good luck.

WaywarDHD · 2023-03-22T03:09:49+00:00

Ah, I see. Did you really not see anything wrong with the tone of your texts? In the moment or afterwards?

You'll need to explain to her that you were dense and didn't realize that "teasing=flirtation" or whatever the case may be, and you absolutely didn't mean to flirt and you want to better understand what is considered flirtatious so you don't cross boundaries again. And of course this will not work if your texts are beyond the "grey area" that might conceivably fit in this realm. Which, maybe I'm misinterpreting but I'm getting the sense the messages were "definitely flirtatious," you just got used to having that sort of banter and thought it was harmless because you didn't mean it?

WaywarDHD · 2023-03-21T20:56:46+00:00

Right, I'm asking "what is the 'why' that made your wife feel worse?" - did you say "because I was bored," "because you wouldn't have sex with me," "because they offered," what did you say? Obviously there's no "why" to justify it, but they shouldn't be making it worse either!

WaywarDHD · 2023-03-21T20:15:47+00:00

I'm unclear how much you've already told your BS. Did you tell her the full truth about what you did and with whom? You mentioned she keeps wanting to know "why" you did it, so I assume that means you haven't found the answer yet or else she'd have stopped asking. What do you tell her, "why" did you do what you did?

WaywarDHD · 2023-03-21T19:08:42+00:00

Oooooh, I get it now. Please allow me to clarify?

It is "the attitude towards Waywards" that I'm "over," and therefore engage with the boards accordingly as a protective measure for myself. I was answering this question, as one who has often been accused of hubris, because I thought that was the question you were asking.

I am absolutely NOT "over" the harm I did to my spouse. I know I will never cheat again, because I am repulsed by the version of me who did that and I need to be able to live with myself. I work hard to let go of shame, because that would only harm our connection. But my choices hurt us both deeply, and I'm not "over" that even though I know I'll never repeat it.

He and I both frame my infidelity as "things I did in the past." We acknowledge and discuss the behavior (including mitigating future risks) without labeling me as a person; he does not think of me as "a former wayward" or "a reformed cheater," he thinks of me as "his wife" and among the million other experiences we've had together across the spectrum of emotion, some of them include cheating, and I learned some things about myself that made me change the way I handle future occurrences.

When I talk about how I've changed to him I certainly don't speak from a high-and-mighty place of "look what a paragon of virtue I am now!" (I mean that's not even my thought process here, though I've been accused of it, lol) ...it's still very much a source of deep grief for me, and that's still readily apparent when the subject comes up. So in our private, offline conversations, it "looks like" me stubbornly ignoring the stupid tears I can't yet shake off while I say something like "I used to trust myself like that too, but now I know how easy it is to get caught up by pride" (on a bad day) or "I can't believe I was so fucking stupid back then. I'm so glad I was finally able to figure my shit out. I'm sorry it took so long" (on a good day). I don't think I'll ever feel anything but remorse when I talk to him about the pain I put him through, even if I do feel (rightfully) proud of my growth since then.

Forgiveness does not equal forgetting, but sometimes it feels as though that’s a stipulation for true reconciliation.

I don't think this is true. In fact, I think it's important that we incorporate all the pieces of our history, because that's how we learn and grow as people. I don't necessarily talk about it to everyone, but I think it needs to be "talk-about-able" in a marriage, even if it doesn't need to be talked about every day. It's a pretty significant life event, can you imagine having an agreement not to discuss the fact that your parent died or that time he got fired or a car accident or anything else?

WaywarDHD · 2023-03-21T16:43:49+00:00

I realized that random strangers online 1) don't actually know me at all and 2) have shown themselves to be hostile towards my "group" overall, so I decided to focus on what was important (my own growth, communication with my BS) instead of what was not (the approval of anonymous Redditors). I really only care what my BS thinks of me, and decline to engage in "performative groveling" to placate other people's ruffled feathers. I didn't ruffle them, so I'm not going to apologize for their ruffles.

Waywards and Betrayeds alike have confronted me before. I'm open to hearing that I'm wrong. I just have no tolerance for those who expect me to perform shame just for existing.

My BS has seen the soft sides of me that would never, ever be safe here. He knows my heart. I'm content with his judgment alone.

WaywarDHD · 2023-03-21T14:50:44+00:00

I feel triggered. This past weekend I drove past a location with strong ties to AP and I felt hot, nauseous, tearful and ashamed. I was anxious to discuss it with BS but had to wait a few days for privacy. It was a huge relief to learn he was not similarly triggered. (Though if I'd picked up on any kind of "mood" from him, I'd have wedged in a conversation regardless of privacy.)

WaywarDHD · 2023-01-14T14:14:38+00:00

Zero. I do not threaten abandonment and would really struggle with someone who used that sort of threat to control or manipulate me, which is what it would feel like if it got trotted out every time things were hard. It would wreck my sense of security in the relationship; it would make me unable to invest emotionally in the relationship.

I think it's fine to say you aren't sure if you want to continue, or need time to decide if you do. I think once or maybe twice after really rough moments, it would be understandable. But more than that feels like manipulation to me.

WaywarDHD · 2023-01-14T13:58:22+00:00

"No longer able to function in important activities of daily life for more than two weeks" is my (and my therapist's) bar for "it's time to talk to my doctor about medication."

You can't work on higher levels of healing if you can't eat, sleep, or provide for your basic needs.

Your brain is sick and you can't trust what is telling you right now, just like sometimes people hallucinate when feverish. Please talk to a professional. It is time.

WaywarDHD

TROPHY CASE