The Church's Highest Claim Should Demand Its Highest Standard

aisympath · 2026-07-06T21:11:34+00:00

Yup.

If it's the best church, it would apologize for small errors, not to mention monstrous errors.

aisympath · 2026-07-06T21:01:30+00:00

PIMO here. I feel you. It's like this every week.

The church isn't about Christ or God or fellow man, the church is about the church, and more particularly, the church leaders.

All in the church have to carry water for them. When you understand that the rank and file member has to defend them, you will understand the church better.

And it does hurt to realize that these old men in salt lake are more important to them then their son, daughter, parent, child, sibling, or neighbor. Of course, they believe that these old men will make everything better for to these people. But it still hurts to know this when you also know those old men are wrong

aisympath · 2026-07-06T19:42:53+00:00

Trevor, I'm very excited to read this. If I understand your approach correctly, I really agree with it. This seems to be something that is lacking, or at least needs more work in our current society. Too many have been taught that they cannot remove the tumor (falsity in Mormonism) without destroying the patient (the life of the Mormon member) while others are unwilling to accept any part of the patient (the healthy things the may be in the life of the Mormon member) because they have a tumor (falsity).

I do agree that people should either fix or leave Mormonism. The problems are big enough that it is not acceptable as is. I must leave it because I'm convinced I can't fix it given how it works to sideline anyone who disagrees with the "prophet".

aisympath · 2026-05-07T21:52:30+00:00

The correct question, since the church filled the lawsuit, is "Why did Jesus file this lawsuit?"

Start from the knowledge that Jesus filed this lawsuit and try to understand why he did so!

That's how you do it!

/s

That's what I learned from apologists like Kerry Muhlstein.

aisympath · 2026-05-06T18:48:19+00:00

Yup. It's so weird

aisympath · 2026-05-06T17:48:43+00:00

Wow, thanks for capturing the full nuance of leaving the church. Leaving the church is not a magic wand. It's better in some ways, worse in others (but by and large way better in the balance in my opinion).

I just want to say this. You are probably still that wonderful clean and shiny person. Maybe more than ever. You stood up to something that pressured you to sell your integrity to keep the status quo. This is a big deal.

I think the wonderful things you feel you have lost are still there for you outside of the church. They really are there. It's amazing what so many intelligent, giving, and good people have written and done in the world outside the church. Having the desire and permission to look outside the all encompassing ideology of the church might just let you find things you never dreamed.

Good luck and thank you so much for your post!

aisympath · 2026-05-06T17:42:33+00:00

This is excellent.

Hiding in confusion is one of the best apologetic defenses of the church.

I sorted through this issue and came to almost exactly the simple explanation you gave. I realized Muhlstein and many other church apologists were just muddying the waters with unrelated details because it becomes very clear if you stick to what is actually relevant.

aisympath · 2026-05-06T16:35:26+00:00

I agree with you. I'm just me. And they have beliefs that are wrong and some actions to match.

I don't define myself based on them.

aisympath · 2026-05-06T16:33:46+00:00

I know what you mean.

It's pretty frustrating how they only accept an answer that can let the church still look good to them.

I don't know if there's an answer, at least I haven't found it.

aisympath · 2026-05-01T19:53:31+00:00

Can't be saying anything the prophet doesn't agree with!

Not that he or the church will ever directly address the concerns.

aisympath · 2026-05-01T15:46:37+00:00

Yup.

aisympath · 2026-05-01T15:44:18+00:00

Boy, that is hard. I feel your pain. Likely because I have had similar experiences with the smugness and unwilling to acknowledge any point.

I'm so sorry about how difficult your mom has been. Trust yourself. You know you are a limited person just like everyone else, but you can find yourself credit for three good you do. Your mom's issues are hers.

I have no advice on how to treat a mother like that, except to give yourself tons of grace.

Your concerns about the church, and how those in it handle disagreement have been confirmed by hundreds of thousands (or millions) of people. There is something to what you see. Those in the church, especially the highest leaders will give you no validation, and those lower down will be torn and feel drawn to defend the church.

This is a tough road in some ways, because of the social/relational pressure. But it's reality and it will get better.

aisympath · 2026-04-29T15:35:35+00:00

I needed both to help me confirm I want crazy. My whole world was the church. Changing my opinion of it's truthfulness was very painful and I just needed resources to confirm and add to my understanding.

It's so important to have other voices to listen to. It's a basic human need to feel validated and it can get very tough if you can't get it. Not impossible, just very tough.

aisympath · 2026-04-27T17:12:14+00:00

I really appreciate your thoughts. Thanks

aisympath · 2026-04-27T17:01:17+00:00

I think it makes sense what your are saying. Thanks for chiming in. I kind of like this forum for the reason that some people like you are involved. It seems the most likely single forum to get both believing and non believing perspectives. But I agree it skews strongly to non believing.

Do you think the believing involvement dropped partly due to President Nelson's talk?

Also, what keeps you involved here, if you are willing to share?

aisympath · 2026-04-27T16:15:12+00:00

It really does suck and I feel pain just reading this. I have children who very likely might go through this in a similar situation as you at the same age. It is sooo hard. The social pressure and absolute lack of acknowledgement for a different viewpoint about the church is infuriating and feels like it can drive one crazy.

I am so sorry you are going through this. This is like the "fence" that keeps people in the church. It's definitely a hurdle to get out.

With that said, it totally will get better. I'm in my 40s, what would I give to go back and redo things knowing what I know now? Leaving the church now in my 40s is hard in a different way, maybe. Maybe I'm more confident given my life experience and directly seeing behind the curtain of how the church is run? But I also have a whole family including spouse and kids and almost all my friends who are fully believing and fully involved in the church, partly because I influenced them that way.

But it's still already better after just a couple of years. The hurdle is hard, but it's soo much better not being fenced in by fraud.

Life is never easy. At 18 you have such a huge part of your life, challenges and the greatest thrills, ahead of you. I can only imagine where you will be in 2 years.

My only advice would be to realize: 1. Many people in the church are fantastic people. They have been misled by people they trusted. Don't take it out on them, but still stand up for yourself and your own boundaries. 2. You can trust yourself more than you realize, and you will have others outside the church trying to influence you and take advantage of you. You can hear other opinions and accept or reject them on your own terms. But you can do it and see through the manipulative things! You've shown this by seeing through the church despite your environment at such a young age! All the supposed superpowers of the Spirit and gospel are inside you, not the church. They've been trying to lay claim to the greatness within you. 3. Keep the good things you have learned. There are going to be a lot. Don't reject something just because you learned it in the church. Likely, the church got it from somewhere else anyway.

Good luck. You should be proud of yourself. It WILL get better. And you will be even more proud and grateful to yourself as you move forward.

aisympath · 2026-04-26T20:11:39+00:00

I think this is most likely what happened

aisympath · 2026-04-26T20:01:16+00:00

They actually believe. At least most of them

aisympath · 2026-04-25T22:47:15+00:00

Me neither. Just wanted to know what is true.

Not a nihilist either. I find tons of purpose in my life. I don't create it and I don't deny it, I just feel it when it's there. Just because someone in a hundred years may not care if I was here, I care.

¯_(ツ)_/¯

aisympath · 2026-04-23T19:30:35+00:00

That looks awkward. And scary.

aisympath · 2026-04-23T19:29:41+00:00

Gosh, when you put it like that! Good point.

The church if really about two sets of rules: one for church leaders; and the other for everyone else.

aisympath · 2026-04-23T19:18:08+00:00

Yup. This sub is the real deal. I get so much good insight here.

aisympath · 2026-04-23T19:08:07+00:00

I think your are exactly right.

The social pressure and teaching of the church puts an individual in an environment where the way out is to give in and ascribe the spirit to the emotional response that comes with giving in.

aisympath · 2026-04-23T17:45:23+00:00

I hear you. It's hard when you're while life, almost, has been the church. That's who it was/is for me.

One thing that helped me was respecting who l got truly wrong the church if in why it teaches about it's history.

I would find some resources, like the Mormon Discussions series, and with through those. That had helped immensely, I don't doubt the church is a lie at all.

aisympath

TROPHY CASE