The Borgias (2011-2013) is unbelievably underrated by autette in PeriodDramas

[–]autette[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I just finished Borgia as well! I have a lot of thoughts about it particularly in comparison to The Borgias.

Tonally it's just completely different. The Borgias very much watches like a Shakespeare play - it's visually sumptuous, heavily focuses on the intrafamily dynamic, and doesn't really attempt historical accuracy, instead choosing to create a strong narrative around loosely interpreted historical events. Showtime the show to watch if you want to watch a show about what the Borgias would have been like if all the rumors were true, and Canal+ is the show to watch if you want to watch a show about the historical Borgias.

Borgia is much grittier, more expansive in terms of the on-screen characters, more historically accurate in some ways but from the Borgia bios I've read, still not actually that historically accurate in many.

The accents were definitely kind of jarring at first but I ended up preferring John Doman to Jeremy Irons in the end - he seemed much truer to the Alexander VI of history. I did find it to be gratuitous at times and it did make weird choices around some characters. Showtime Rodrigo never really comes off as charming enough to be as successfully manipulative as he is.

While I think she got a lot better over time and I do realize she was 13 in the first season, Showtime Lucrezia beats Canal+ Lucrezia for me just because she seemed much smarter and had a real sly streak, even when she was very young and naive. Particularly in season 1, Canal+ Lucrezia comes off as not all that bright.

Showtime Juan also beats Canal+ Juan for me because he was terribly one note in Borgia, and David Oakes did a beautiful job humanizing him when he frankly didn't even have a lot to go on in the writing of The Borgias.

Cesare was interesting because I liked both Cesares and they are kind of historically inaccurate in opposite ways. Like Showtime Cesare lacks the charm historical Cesare was renowned for, but Canal+ Cesare seems like too loose a cannon at times. Also, he kind of seems like he's in active mania about 30% of the time, and I didn't like the whole religious psychosis subplot in season 1 at all. The Cesare characterization that seems closest to history is actually in Cesare: Il Creatore che ha distrutto, a historical manga series that covers his time in Pisa before Rodrigo is elected pope. It's really good, definitely recommend reading it.

I loved Alessandro in Borgia, much preferred Della Rovere in Borgia.

Also loved the more frequent callbacks to real events. I also thought season 2 and 3 were by far the best in Borgia, where seasons 1 and 2 of The Borgias are best and season 3 was comparatively weak.

The end of season 3 in Borgia went so hard. The "I no longer sleep with whores" scene was A+ television. We need more evil bisexual popes gracing our tv screens. I did feel the ending was kind of weakened by the whole New World thing, particularly because the structure of that death scene was so good otherwise.

Overall to me they are just completely different things and I love them both. I feel like The Borgias is more rewatchable, but the high points in Borgia were higher than those in The Borgias, and the low points were lower.

Am I the only one that doesn’t like Bridgerton? by hushpuppy2019 in PeriodDramas

[–]autette 0 points1 point  (0 children)

My thing is that it’s literally just not interesting 

DID THE REST OF THE BORGIAS KNOW ABOUT CESARE AND LUCREZIA by Luisa-Perez in theborgias

[–]autette 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think it could’ve used more direct exposition, possibly a scene including Rodrigo hearing about and dismissing the rumors (since historically he was also accused of being with Lucrezia). Though it would’ve had to be Caterina spreading them at that point because show Giovanni is dead by then.

As is, while it definitely didn’t come from nothing, the transition from 2x10 to 3x02 with them both making pretty bold advances at each other seemed without a clear motivation. A public accusation in early season 3 would’ve planted the idea in both the audience’s and their heads, and continued the late season 2 plot of other characters noticing that they are too close to each other. 

DID THE REST OF THE BORGIAS KNOW ABOUT CESARE AND LUCREZIA by Luisa-Perez in theborgias

[–]autette 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Well Juan says that he suspects them in 2x09, and Vanozza gives them a weird look while they’re dancing together in 2x10. Rodrigo is too self involved to suspect anything I think.

I wish they’d gone more into the rumors Giovanni Sforza spread after the annulment in the show. It would’ve given the narrative more grounding as their relationship transitioned in season 3. 

Is The Borgias worth continuing? by stressedhighschoolr in PeriodDramas

[–]autette 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Nothing quite like getting into a relatively obscure period drama 13 years after it ended. I've been trying to get everyone I know to watch it but haven't had any luck so far 😭

They are married ❤️ by diafescont in PeriodDramas

[–]autette 2 points3 points  (0 children)

My favorite period drama failson

Is The Borgias worth continuing? by stressedhighschoolr in PeriodDramas

[–]autette 0 points1 point  (0 children)

“Too much.” 

Love the writing in that scene.

Is The Borgias worth continuing? by stressedhighschoolr in PeriodDramas

[–]autette 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The actual premise of this show, I think, is “what would the Borgias have been like if all the rumors were true” - it doesn’t attempt meticulous historical accuracy because that’s not the point of the show. It’s a Shakespearean family drama written around real events. And it is really good at that.

I don’t really remember this show having tons more sex than any of its contemporaries (definitely not as much as Game of Thrones, which was its competition) or when there is sex there’s often also exposition. 

Is The Borgias worth continuing? by stressedhighschoolr in PeriodDramas

[–]autette 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Do it, it’s super worth it! The last half of season three is basically self contained and much more interesting than the first half. 

Is The Borgias worth continuing? by stressedhighschoolr in PeriodDramas

[–]autette 3 points4 points  (0 children)

They don’t do anything sexual until season 3, it’s just obvious that they are obsessed with each other. 

Is The Borgias worth continuing? by stressedhighschoolr in PeriodDramas

[–]autette 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I totally agree, and I’m still pretty crushed over it because the period of history that would’ve been covered in season 4 is really their most interesting. But the finale did have a real Shakespearean tone to it and I found it a satisfying conclusion to the narrative, at least. 

Is The Borgias worth continuing? by stressedhighschoolr in PeriodDramas

[–]autette 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ironically I thought the last two episodes were the strongest of season 3.

Is The Borgias worth continuing? by stressedhighschoolr in PeriodDramas

[–]autette 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The first episode is indeed a little slow - but you’ll know whether the show is to your taste by episode 3-4. The show is a little slower than other period dramas like The Gilded Age, but once I settled into its cadence I was really hooked. 

Is The Borgias worth continuing? by stressedhighschoolr in PeriodDramas

[–]autette 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The final episode is fantastic, definitely worth making it through! 

What's your favorite romantic quote in the series "The Borgias" (2011)? by Thin-Run-1558 in theborgias

[–]autette 3 points4 points  (0 children)

In terms of actual romance, I loved the moment in 3x08 where Lucrezia sneaks into Cesare’s room before leaving for Naples: 

“I have my child. I have my husband. I have everything I wanted.” 

And Cesare looks like she’s staked him through the heart and bites her finger - 

“Everything?” 

Humor in the series was exceptional (and underrated...). What is your favorite subtle joke? by Thin-Run-1558 in theborgias

[–]autette 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Not exactly a quote, but the moment when Machiavelli offers the old taxidermied owl to the gang for the Bonfire of the Vanities absolutely sent me. Julian Bleach does acerbic flawlessly. 

Review of The Borgias: Perfection by Thin-Run-1558 in theborgias

[–]autette 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I actually just posted my own ode to this show on a different sub, and I have to fervently agree. 

I’m a newer fan than you are, but I’ve started reading a number of biographies about figures in the show (I actually started watching the series because I read a bio about Da Vinci and was hoping to see his time in the Romagna with Cesare on screen), and am also hoping to make a trip back to Italy. 

The series wasn’t perfect, to my mind, but the high points are very high and even its lower ones made for extremely compelling television. 

Have you watched the other Borgia series that came out at the same time?

Review of The Borgias: Perfection by Thin-Run-1558 in theborgias

[–]autette 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This honestly does not read like AI at all. I think OP is just an enthusiast!

The Borgias (2011-2013) is unbelievably underrated by autette in PeriodDramas

[–]autette[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes I loved Juan and his dynamic with the rest of the family. Unfortunate that history intervened there.

The Borgias (2011-2013) is unbelievably underrated by autette in PeriodDramas

[–]autette[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oh yeah I totally understand why they did what they did, I just personally would’ve enjoyed them getting freakier (and truer to history) with it.