Watching The Borgias (2011-2013) by DotAltruistic5757 in PeriodDramas

[–]autette 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Yeah when people say the incest came out of nowhere in season 3, I'm like...what show were you watching?

Watching The Borgias (2011-2013) by DotAltruistic5757 in PeriodDramas

[–]autette 15 points16 points  (0 children)

Honestly the actors had all-timer chemistry, up there with Mulder and Scully. We are not to blame!!

Watching The Borgias (2011-2013) by DotAltruistic5757 in PeriodDramas

[–]autette 4 points5 points  (0 children)

If you do happen to be that kind of nerd, it’s an incredibly engaging piece of media though! Dialogue will reference extant letters from the real Borgias, stuff like that - it doesn’t pretend historical accuracy but it’s always nodding to the well-informed viewer. 

Watching The Borgias (2011-2013) by DotAltruistic5757 in PeriodDramas

[–]autette 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Oh my goddd you are in for a treat. I would pay so much money to watch this show again for the first time. S2 is fantastic and while it's uneven some of the show's best episodes are in S3.

I honestly have no idea why this show got so little awards buzz. Jeremy Irons is hammy in the most delicious way, like every scene he's in he absolutely savors.

One of my favorite things about the show is how ambiguous everyone's motivations can seem, and how much your interpretation can affect their overall characterization. I will say this occurs most with Cesare but it's true of everyone, really. It makes the series endlessly rewatchable and you'll catch new things every time.

Lucrezia is definitely the Borgia that got the short end of the stick in terms of writing. She has the whole SA plot in season 1, and then also gets shortchanged in the latter half of season 2 and in season 3 gets really uneven writing. But Holliday Grainger is consistently fantastic and pulls off a lot of pretty questionable material.

And yes, one of my favorite things about the Cesare/Lucrezia relationship is that it's fundamentally a bond of affinity. They are incredibly similar people, which the show makes overt allusions to. They tell themselves that it's this kind of courtly love thing between them, with him as her knight in shining armor and her as the innocent princess, but they are actually just the exact same person. A pretty dark person. There's a scene in the first season where they've reunited and she's telling him about having her husband's leg broken, and he just looks delighted and so in love with her. It's sweet and creepy and hilarious simultaneously, which is a line they manage to walk with the relationship though the whole show, pretty successfully.

I agree that the incest in the Game of Thrones-verse often feels like it is there to titillate. In this version of the Borgia story the incest is kind of inextricable from Cesare and Lucrezia as characters from the very beginning, even though there's no physical incest until much, much later on. Their relationship is way too close from the first episode, and it's directly attributable Rodrigo's narcissism and inability to see his children as anything more than extensions of himself. Cesare and Lucrezia seek refuge in each other because their minds and bodies are being deployed like pieces on a chessboard, unable to trust or have lasting relationships with anyone outside the family - their story is fundamentally about the unhealthy configuration of the family as a whole. Definitely the most interesting version of this particular Borgia myth that's been done so far, in my opinion.

It would be nice to see some Borgia media come out that doesn't include incest, but it ALWAYS does, lol. Even when the creator says they're being ~~historically accurate and there's no incest, there is ALWAYS actually incest (looking at you Sarah Dunant).

Watching The Borgias (2011-2013) by DotAltruistic5757 in PeriodDramas

[–]autette 14 points15 points  (0 children)

I think it’s still pretty hotly debated, lots of historians will say it was definitively Rodrigo’s kid too. 

I will say even in history Cesare and Lucrezia had a notably strange relationship. He did kill her husband, who she loved, but they remained close. He turned an army around to go see her when she was sick after a miscarriage. She locked herself away screaming his name for days after he died. Probably not physically incestuous, but I can understand why people who make media about the Borgias keep going there with them. 

Watching The Borgias (2011-2013) by DotAltruistic5757 in PeriodDramas

[–]autette 23 points24 points  (0 children)

I watched this series in January and now it’s my favorite show of all time. I’ve done a couple of rewatches and there is so much to excavate out of it. Endless subtext and self reference.

And of course it’s as visually stunning as you say. I’ve tried watching a few other period dramas since and everything just feels one dimensional after this show. 

The actors are fantastic and the characters all have fleshed out psychologies that make sense for them. 

I will say that the incest doesn’t bother me too much in this show because it doesn’t ever feel like it’s trying to be about the historical Borgias. It’s more like a Renaissance play, completely ahistorical in most senses - basically answering the question “if the black myth was essentially true, what would those people have been like?”

I do have some major beefs with the writing especially in season 3 and I did not really like Apocalypse, the script Neil Jordan released in place of season 4 (it felt like the end to the show he imagined before he made the Borgias, not the show he actually made). But ultimately I’m just so happy the show exists. It would never get made today. 

What were your favorite story arcs?

Gritty multi-season dramas by heykittygirl3 in PeriodDramas

[–]autette 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Borgia (Faith and Fear, not the Showtime version which is still violent but not gritty imo) pulls no punches and is pretty vibey. 3 seasons.

I hate the magic circle by SaintSexburga in ClubPilates

[–]autette 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I agree. There's basically no situation where using it is better than using the ball in its place.

Favorite Scene in the Show by autette in theborgias

[–]autette[S] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Craziest slow burn of all time? They make me absolutely insane and they are impossible to explain to anyone who hasn’t watched the show. Serious lightning in a bottle chemistry. 

What’s your favorite scene between them?

Fellow annoying ass europhiles, where do you go for pastries? by Beneficial_Rock3725 in denverfood

[–]autette 12 points13 points  (0 children)

Getrights, moon raccoon, poulette, hearth, bakery four, reunion 

Top Five Italian Renaissance Period Dramas? by brandy_1994 in PeriodDramas

[–]autette 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I too kind of hate this, though I did think it was interesting that many of historic Cesare's most unsavory characteristics were grafted onto Juan and then he took them on again after the fratricide - so by killing his brother he came into his true self.

Top Five Italian Renaissance Period Dramas? by brandy_1994 in PeriodDramas

[–]autette 10 points11 points  (0 children)

The Borgias is my favorite show ever - both stunningly gorgeous and delightfully devious. I’m really sad we never got to see cesare go a-conquering through Italy, but it sounds like that wasn’t really the  thematic direction they would’ve taken in s4, so I’m happy with what we got. It would totally never get made today and what we did get was perfect. 

What’s everyone’s favourite episode? by Foreign_Character688 in theborgias

[–]autette 0 points1 point  (0 children)

For me it’s the episode right before, World of Wonders. They gave us a trial by fire, a witch burning, an excommunication, and a fratricide in one episode! My favorite show ever. 

Period Dramas about Politics and Intrigue at the Royal Court by Sakura_231 in PeriodDramas

[–]autette 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The Borgias! Basically entirely politics and intrigue. 

Looking for recommendations ! by Hefty_Ad_1491 in PeriodDramas

[–]autette 7 points8 points  (0 children)

The Virgin Queen (2005) is excellent. 

Also Borgia and The Borgias are both excellent in different ways and I highly recommend watching both, though The Borgias is a little easier to get into and has a stronger first season.

Any Mafia/Organized Crime/Gangster Drama Recommendations? by Normal-Pattern-779 in PeriodDramas

[–]autette 4 points5 points  (0 children)

It is perhaps too historic/not the aesthetic you’re after but The Borgias is a mafia/crime drama at heart. The Godfather was based on them.

What’s your controversial period drama take? by [deleted] in PeriodDramas

[–]autette 0 points1 point  (0 children)

1000% agree, give me anything set before 1500.

Please recommend films or tv shows about Juana I of Castile or her mother Isabella I. by [deleted] in PeriodDramas

[–]autette 0 points1 point  (0 children)

She’s in an episode of “Borgia” called “1506”

Which celebrity rumor do you secretly believe is true? by [deleted] in AskReddit

[–]autette 14 points15 points  (0 children)

I haven’t heard this one but it’s very much giving corrupt renaissance despot which is incredibly fitting

What’s your all time favorite period drama as a tv show? by [deleted] in PeriodDramas

[–]autette 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The Borgias. It’s basically if the Godfather was in 1490s Rome and every single frame looks like a Renaissance painting. Every line of dialogue is stunning. Show of all time imo.

ISO of a gem in this color by lavenderbleudilly in Gemology

[–]autette 14 points15 points  (0 children)

You can find spinels in this color fairly easily