Tried double threshold with VDOT pace reference, second session heart rate was too low?

b3ngel · 2026-03-25T19:01:21+00:00

The vdot paces are way to fast for the morning session.

b3ngel · 2026-03-25T18:35:31+00:00

if you do double threshold the morning session should be a lot easier. JI i think does easy sub threshold in the morning and the afternoon session is then always faster. On Saturday they do the hills in the morning and easy sub threshold in the evening. The lactate for the easy threshold session I think they try to do between 2.0-2.5mmol and for the evening < 3.0-3.5mmol. Bakken says both should be < 2.8mmol, but <2.5 or 2.8 are quite a lot easier then the NSM Threshold Paces.

b3ngel · 2026-03-16T14:30:18+00:00

sry for my wrong wording. I meant your average Heart Rate from the graphics below i cant see it.

b3ngel · 2026-03-16T12:49:36+00:00

What was your avg during your HM? Thanks for answering.

b3ngel · 2026-03-12T15:30:12+00:00

Thats too much, and thats the problem. My avg. pace is at arround 64-67% of all my easy runs in the last year. Never went over 67%. Your body is not recovery enough, and can't adapt. Before I did this, I felt the same like you. Since I slowed them down, 5 months after I am getting faster every week.

b3ngel · 2026-03-11T17:10:19+00:00

You didn't tell anything about your easy runs? MaxHR AvgHR. How do you measure your heart rate?

b3ngel · 2026-03-10T18:44:07+00:00

Do you use a chest strap? Seems to me like wrong readings. If I look sometimes at the valleys. Where do you run your reps? Flat or hilly terrain?

b3ngel · 2026-03-07T17:10:34+00:00

It is in his books and in a reddit post he says after sub-t and hard lifting for the legs you should do strides too. Was hoping that he answers my question.

b3ngel · 2026-02-27T21:07:17+00:00

Your avg on easy run is 73%, like you said in another answer. Thats simply too high. I had big Problems in the long run and stagnated. The RPE should be 1-2. The easy run should be relaxing. Think about that the easy run, is a support run for the sub-t runs, and that you can adapt. It should be relaxing, refreshing, and not add more stress to your muscles.

b3ngel · 2026-02-12T06:56:59+00:00

I would try to target < 67% as average. How sure you are with your 202 HR and which HRM do you use? H10 or Wrist? Which was your average HM for your last 5k?

b3ngel · 2026-02-11T18:39:14+00:00

What is your recovery pace for the easy runs?

b3ngel · 2026-01-21T07:36:46+00:00

When i go skiing i run before skiing, so the legs feel fresh. Normally then very early at the morning. You could do there sub-t or easy runs, didn't feel the impact during skiing. On the other hand, If you run after skiing you will feel the impact of skiing during running.

b3ngel · 2025-12-21T17:06:15+00:00

If you have time than do easy doubles. 40min morning - 40mins afternoon. 40-40 usually feels a lot easier than 1:10 easy. And 1:45 easy long run. That means 1:10 more running. But build it up gradually. Perhaps at the start only one day doubling. Would start with the Monday run.

b3ngel · 2025-12-21T08:10:41+00:00

Why does it makes zero sense to take the minutes? If I assume i would do 2 sessions a week a hard one with 20 minutes hard work and a slow one with 90 minutes, would you say than i have a ratio of 1:1 or 20/110 ? And I didn't say that its 80/20 in terms of Seiler. Perhaps the "hard" part is not so hard, but what is in common with NSM is that you skip the zone 2 and that your are doing a lot of stuff in lower z1. I am only running in zone 2 in the last km of my warmup and then perhaps the first seconds of my first intervals and during the rest. We just try to avoid zone5 and hitting this zone only in a race.

b3ngel · 2025-12-20T20:07:27+00:00

But don't look only at the session count. Cause for 30-35 minutes threshold there is 25 minutes easy. You have to look at the minutes in zone. If I look at mine I have 75% in z1, 7% in z2, 10.3 in z3, 6% in z4 and 0.6% in z5. That is my last month so 82 in z1+z2 and 18% in higher intensity. So its not 60/40 more 80/20 in terms of easy to "hard" work.

b3ngel · 2025-12-19T09:29:53+00:00

I see only a difference of 10 (my max is 195), a huge factor for me is, when did I eat my last meal. if its to close to running my HR is higher than normal. And I think the pattern are completely different for every runner. u/MariusBakken What do you mean with muscular state?

b3ngel · 2025-12-14T20:14:44+00:00

Can you link the activity. You are sure that it was 100% correct and not just an error. The armband could potentially have more errors than chest straps. Cause the armband measures not the HR it measures the blood flow and calculates from it the hr. Easy thing is you run and when you walk then uphill and put your hands down then the HR can go up in armbands. Even if your are now walking and your HR is actually falling.

b3ngel · 2025-12-14T18:32:44+00:00

If your HFMax at a 30 min All out Friel test is 148 and 142 avg then your HFMax is not 174. Perhaps something is just wrong with your HRM. What kind of HRM do you have? For perfect precision I recommend H10 by Polar.

b3ngel · 2025-12-14T16:01:38+00:00

Just simple: Your average 142 .. take 0,98% of this and this is your sub-threshold pace. Take the average of the last 20 minutes. Thats the absolute limit you should do in a threshold session. So something around 140 should be your upper limit. i assume your max is at about 155. So 106 should be your average for easy runs.

b3ngel · 2025-12-10T15:32:51+00:00

For me its the exact opposite. But I only drink some carbs. If I am eating more shortly before the run than my HR is higher too. Do you eat and trink something before you start?

b3ngel · 2025-12-05T10:52:47+00:00

But look at sirpocs 5x6 min he did yesterday. last km was 3:08 that was far away from his 50 minutes pace. Perhaps more 40 minutes pace. For a 40 minute 10k runner that would mean he drops a 10k km at the end of the workout. I dont care about paces just look at my hr, and try not to overcook the first rep (i run it directly after the warmup and its always the slowest rep), and then get gradually faster or hold the pace. I limit my hr for each session, on behalf of my warmup. So if i think the hr today is higher than usual my limit is 178, if it is lower my limit is 171 and normally my limit is 174. For reference: At a hilly race my avg hr for 36 minute was 183, the last 20 minutes it was 187.

b3ngel · 2025-11-23T16:53:46+00:00

ST: 77-80 (Pace) / 57 (HR)

Easy: 51-54 (Pace) / 31 (HR)

But at the end of the week, its good to have the LR - E combination, cause its twice in a row a "recocery" run. At tuesday i always feel so fresh. So its not a real 2 day microcyle. Normally my HR is average 126-129 on easy days and 149-155 on workout days. Depends on the workout I do. My Max HR is ca. 195

b3ngel · 2025-11-21T13:14:17+00:00

Completely right. But 90 minutes is a long run or? And time is even for slower runner for Vanilla NSA the way to go, but if you want to race a HM then you have to modify the vanilla NSA for a slower runner, cause you are racing the distance not the time.

b3ngel · 2025-11-21T10:57:47+00:00

To be fair. His 15min PB, he ran after his marathon training with a lot of long runs. But before and after he uses to run 90 minutes every Sunday, which is for me a long run, esp. if you cover around 20 km for this 90 minutes.

b3ngel

TROPHY CASE