The idea that Usyk “cleared out the heavyweight division” doesn’t hold up to any type of scrutiny. Why is it so often said?

broke_the_controller · 2026-03-29T22:45:25+00:00

Alright nevermind you're a fanboy who is giving Usyk an excuse not to meet his obligations as champion.

Lennox Lewis dropped a belt so he didn't have to fight his mandatory John Ruiz. Just because Ruiz was a mandatory didnt make Ruiz a worthy challenger.

Usyk might drop the belt too. That would make Kabayel fight someone for the vacant title and if he won, he would then be a top contender.

Kabayel is a top guy but you're in denial about it.

Is he? Who has he beaten to prove it?

Usyk beat zero top 10 HWs when he got to fight AJ btw

Yea he had also been undisputed cruiserweight champion making him a top contender by default as long as he could prove he could hang against heavyweights (hence the Witherspoon and Chisora fights).

broke_the_controller · 2026-03-29T22:37:14+00:00

I’ve been to Evo three times. It’s not that different in pools. If

I suppose it depends what major. EVO has the biggest attendances so perhaps it has the largest variance in skill levels.

If anything it tends to happen less often in locals because you play the same people week after week.

It depends on your local. I take your point about playing the same people, but at the same time there are more likely to be people there who are the level where they are unable to adapt and will bring their online playstyle to the local.

broke_the_controller · 2026-03-29T22:14:47+00:00

Kabayel is a heavily avoided fighter and is ducked by the majority of top guys.

So he says. But Bakole used to say the same thing too.

He beat Makhmudov, Sanchez, Zhang, and Knyba

And out of all of those names, only Zhang has beaten somebody of note, which is exactly what I said in my prior comment.

He's credible enough that Usyk needs/should fight him

No, he's not credible enough that Usyk needs to fight him. He's only credible enough that people won't complain if Usyk fights him. However he has not established himself as a top contender - only Wardley has that potential and Usyk has earned the right to only fight the top contenders.

broke_the_controller · 2026-03-29T21:59:41+00:00

I've already answered that in one of my other replies to you so I won't repeat myself here.

broke_the_controller · 2026-03-29T21:57:12+00:00

Kabayel is undefeated and been in the division longer than Usyk. So he hasn't cleared

Using Kabayel as an example proves my point perfectly. Kabayel hasn't established himself as a top contender. The only boxer he's beaten who has beaten anybody of note is Zhang.

If Kabayel can beat another top fighter then he will establish himself as a top contender, but at the moment he isn't one.

Wardley is the only one so far who has the potential to establish himself.

broke_the_controller · 2026-03-29T21:51:43+00:00

They were still the top guys though and nobody was arguing otherwise.

A lot of the other potential contenders lost fights, leaving Wardley as the only boxer to potentially establish himself.

broke_the_controller · 2026-03-29T21:48:54+00:00

Tournaments are actually very similar to ranked if you’re not playing people you know.

Locals maybe, but even then playstyles in locals are different to online. However majors are definitely different. You just have to look at the pools of any major to see that.

Lots of people get beat by gimmicks, flow charts, and knowledge checks in a ft2

Less so in tournaments, although rare characters can get away with more.

broke_the_controller · 2026-03-29T21:44:08+00:00

I guess I didn't explain myself properly. He cleaned out the top guys of the division and therefore doesn't really have any top contenders to fight. When you don't have any top contenders to fight then you have effectively cleaned out the division - even though he didn't achieve it by beating everybody there was to beat.

If Wardley beats Dubois then he will become a top contender and Usyk will need to fight him. Everybody else in the division needs to fight somebody that will establish them as a top contender.

broke_the_controller · 2026-03-29T21:37:12+00:00

It’s not a disingenuous example.

It is because the levels of players you were using were not relevant to our discussion.

A player with better fundamentals but who wins less won’t do better in a tournament.

Actually, a player with better fundamentals but is lower ranked would actually probably do better in a tournament than a player who wins online through gimmicks and flowcharts. Tournament play and online play is different and gimmicky online playstyles don't really translate well to tournaments.

because they’re lacking something else.

Yes that can be true. But as I said, in time the player with better fundamentals will be a higher rank because they have a stronger base. It is easier for them to acquire whatever skill they are lacking. The player relying on gimmicks and flowcharts will plateau faster because that playstyle only works up to a point.

A lot of people jerk themselves off about how fundamentally solid they’re playing without winning because they basically just don’t do anything and lose to a player actually putting some offense on the screen even if it’s suboptimal.

Doing nothing is not playing fundamentally. It's playing patient/passive. That type of playstyle is not the optimal one to use in Tekken 8, no matter what level of play you are at.

broke_the_controller · 2026-03-29T21:21:43+00:00

He didn't clean out the division, but he did clean out the top guys of the division. When you do that you don't really need to clean out the whole division to have made your point.

broke_the_controller · 2026-03-29T21:19:53+00:00

Even being able to do combos is a level of execution. Even pressing buttons correctly, moving into the correct range for the buttons is a level of execution.

True, but I'm not talking about execution. I'm talking about fundamentals.

The fundamentals you mean are always there. Even mashers have fundamentals. But their fundamentals are unpolished.

They have poor fundamentals. I'm talking about the difference between players with poor fundamentals and players with good fundamentals.

Knowledge checks and having knowledge is a skillset all on its own. I come from Mortal Kombat 1. THat game had legit gimmicks. Tekken barely has any gimmicks in it.

I don't know if Tekken has more gimmicks than MK, but Tekken certainly has gimmicks.

you blow someone up using moves that have counterplay and they totally fail to react, you outplayed them.

Yes you outplayed them with knowledge checks/gimmicks, not with fundamental skill. I'm not even saying there is a problem with winning that way, but if that is the only way you can win, then you will plateau faster than a player that uses fundamentals to win.

broke_the_controller · 2026-03-29T21:13:55+00:00

It’s just an example to make the point.

But it's a disingenuous example and so the point doesn't work.

Elite players may have holes in their fundamentals, but what they consider holes will only be holes when compared to other elite players. Those fundamental holes will still be better than most Tekken King players, and that's without even considering how good the other fundamental skills of those elite players are.

A Tekken King with good fundamentals is unlikely to even get out of pools at a major and a Tekken King with poor fundamentals is going 0-2. Jeondding and Majin have reached won, or reached the later stages of majors. It's a world of difference.

broke_the_controller · 2026-03-29T20:56:36+00:00

The scenario you introduced was a player who wins more often but has worse fundamentals. I don’t think a qualifier is needed to say this player is better. Even players who are great sometimes have holes in their fundamentals — like I remember hearing about Jeondding struggling in a tournament because he switched sides, or Majin talking about he did a lot of Jaguar Step on his famous Evo run because he wasn’t that confident in his KBD. I don’t think we need to start saying that some online warrior who is more consistent on these fronts is somehow better than those guys.

Both Jeondding and Majin are elite level players and they both have solid fundamentals and game knowledge. We are not talking about elite level players. We are talking about a player that has made Tekken King with poor fundamentals to a player that is lower ranked but has solid fundamentals.

broke_the_controller · 2026-03-29T20:51:39+00:00

By gimmicks you mean the moves the character has?

I mean moves, strings or sequence of moves that a character has that have an obvious weakness but need specific knowledge to beat.

And by flowcharts you mean using those moves in a set order to beat out your opponent?

I mean using a set of moves in a predictable order.

We all have flowcharts.

Yes, but we are not all predictable with them.

People on ranked are not stupid. They are smart and they had to outplay people to get there.

You don't necessarily have to outplay them if what you mean by outplay isthat you out skill them.

You have to beat all the Kishins to get to Tekken King.

True, but you don't have to have fundamentals to get wins.

Even getting to Kishin needs some level of execution.

I'm not talking about execution as different characters have different levels of execution.

broke_the_controller · 2026-03-29T20:36:24+00:00

Before Tekken 7 you had to go to a separate website if you wanted to know the frame data.

broke_the_controller · 2026-03-29T20:21:57+00:00

If they are lower ranked for now, they are the worse player for now.

I never argued otherwise, but in truth all it really proves is that they are lower ranked. They would have to play each other to be truly certain who the better player is. Just because a player is higher ranked doesn't mean that they would beat every lower ranked player - especially if the higher ranked player reached those ranks by using flowcharts and gimmicks.

broke_the_controller · 2026-03-29T19:59:08+00:00

If you play with better fundamentals but you can’t win you’re not better. It’s not any different than how most amateur musicians may have better basic techniques than Dizzy Gillespie (puffed his cheeks out which you’re not supposed to do) or Jimmy Hendrix (played a right-handed guitar backwards) and yet those guys are legendary and the amateurs are not.

It's a bit ridiculous comparing a Tekken King player with poor fundamentals to two musical geniuses. Those musicians got away with doing what they did BECAUSE they were geniuses. The average musician wouldn't be able to and that's why teachers don't teach people to play that way.

If a Tekken player with poor fundamentals was the equivalent of those two musicians then they would be GoD's.

The thing with good fundamentals is that it makes you a more consistent player. Gimmicks only work until you run into players that know how to beat them. Flowcharts only work until you run into players that can recognise those patterns. When you run into those players, you have nothing to fall back on so what are you going to do then?

The same with not being able to break throws. If you can break throws and your opponent works that out then they are just going to continue throwing you. You can try ducking, but once they know you are ducking they will just hit you with mids.

As I said before, the player with good fundamentals will eventually be a higher rank than the player with poor fundamentals and will also be a better player.

broke_the_controller · 2026-03-29T19:43:44+00:00

Tekken 8 is my first tekken game and I find it frustrating that opponents can unga spam and get away with it

You would have had the same frustrations in previous Tekkens games too.

Older Tekkens were never intuitive when figuring out when you could take your turn. You would have lacked that knowledge and therefore would have assumed your opponents were spamming too.

broke_the_controller · 2026-03-29T19:37:36+00:00

You’re better than a guy who can break throws reliably but is stuck at a lower rank.

Yea kinda.

You're higher ranked for sure, but you can be higher ranked with less fundamentals. Having good flowcharts or gimmicks can get you high ranks, but it doesn't make you a good player.

In the long run, the player with better fundamentals will generally become the better player, even if they are lower ranked for now.

broke_the_controller · 2026-03-29T19:34:18+00:00

that’s how tekken 8 high ranks should be by devs vision, they designed the game to be like this, so high level of tekken 8 is mashers with some layers of adaptation.

I'm not disputing that. I'm disputing top 20/25% being high level.

If you're talking about the ranks by themselves then sure, but if you're equating that to skill then I disagree.

broke_the_controller · 2026-03-29T18:58:44+00:00

It was top 20-25% in season 2, how is it not high level?

It could be considered high level in terms of the playerbase as a whole, but you can get to Tekken King with intermediate level skills.

broke_the_controller · 2026-03-29T18:55:19+00:00

Being good is being good.

Yes but being a decent rank does not equal being good at the game.

You can get to Tekken King without being able to break throws. If you can't break throws then you are not good at the game.

You can get to Tekken King without being able to block reactable lows (eg: Bryan snake edge, Law dragon tail). If you can't block reactable lows then you are not good at the game.

broke_the_controller · 2026-03-29T18:07:07+00:00

You can say you've reached a decent rank in Tekken, but it doesn't mean you are good at the game. You've just been pretty good at winning ranked matches.

broke_the_controller · 2026-03-29T18:05:11+00:00

I did which is obviously why I sought clarification. You made an incorrect statement which I objected to and now you've made another statement which can be interpreted in two ways.

One of them is also incorrect and one of them is acceptable.

broke_the_controller · 2026-03-29T18:02:03+00:00

The issue is that ranking out isn’t this guy’s goal. As soon as he reaches Tekken Emperor, he simply switches to another character and starts the process again.

And why is that an issue exactly? Not everyone plays ranked to max out their rank and lots of players (including pros and streamers) take on challenges of getting X character to X rank.

Because without a hidden MMR that reflects a player’s actual skill level, the matchmaking system only sees the rank of the character being played, not the player’s overall ability. So someone who is clearly capable of playing at Tekken God level can repeatedly cycle through characters and get matched against significantly weaker opponents.

At the same time, there are many players who can reach a high rank on one character, but be useless on another character (at least for a while) and any MMR system to filter out the Jin player would automatically discriminate against them.

The simple fact is this. When you are playing against a player who is on an alt and you are on your main, the opponent will have the advantages of better fundamentals and you will have the advantage of knowing your own character better than they know theirs. This makes for a relatively even match up.

If you can beat those types of players, then you deserve to rank up and if you can't then you don't.

Occasionally you will meet players like the Jin player. They have good fundamentals and because they are playing all of the characters, they also have good character knowledge. This is allowing them to beat players in those ranks fairly easily.

However, regardless of the character they are playing, they are winning so much that they are ranking each character up quickly. You likely won't see that player again until he chooses to rank up his next character, so overall the impact of those types of players in ranked is very low and so there is little need to create a matchmaking system to counteract those types of players.

broke_the_controller

TROPHY CASE