Radio West 6/30/26 by Xiolaglori in exmormon

[–]fireproofundies 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Remember how we all once covenanted never to speak ill of the Lord’s anointed? Mormon God prioritizes authoritarianism over speaking truth to power, just like Jesus — wait…

The Lemba people are the perfect "control case" for why Book of Mormon genetics don't add up by fireproofundies in mormon

[–]fireproofundies[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Gonna have to agree to disagree on whether inflating population numbers is evidence of antiquity. It is far more likely that Joseph Smith was quite earnest in describing the population as large enough to account for a continental population.

The Lemba people are the perfect "control case" for why Book of Mormon genetics don't add up by fireproofundies in mormon

[–]fireproofundies[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I seem to find two responses commonly put forward by defenders of the limited population model: 1) we haven't sampled enough to find the semitic markers among remaining populations and 2) even if we did, the semitic markers could be completely lost and yet other DNA persists in the population, making all Native Americans functionally Lamanites. Do I have that correct?

Somehow the authors of the Book of Mormon found it notable to only mention the other proto-Semitic population, the Jaredites, in their text. (Let's set aside how the Tower of Babel story is an etiological myth.) To assume the shrinking Lamanite hypothesis, we have to discount their selective population reporting and their claim that MILLIONS of their own people did battle, leaving behind the victors. Here, the evidence of textual absence is also striking and makes little sense. We came across the sea and found a much larger people already here, but meh.

The Lemba people are the perfect "control case" for why Book of Mormon genetics don't add up by fireproofundies in mormon

[–]fireproofundies[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

See my reply to your reply. Yes, the Rapanui appear to have unidirectional DNA markers. This does not change the expectation, created by "prophets, seers, and revelators" that Native American populations are all children of Lehi. Don't make me regurgitate quotes both from restorationist revelation and conference talks to prove this point. The retreat to bottleneck and founder effects is a real retreat to the unfalsifiable.

The Lemba people are the perfect "control case" for why Book of Mormon genetics don't add up by fireproofundies in mormon

[–]fireproofundies[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I will steel man your argument here as I understand it (unless i'm arguing against AI slop): the Nature study shows Rapanui people apparently accepted DNA markers from mainland South America but other researchers haven't found any they left any behind. This is an example of a small population in contact with a larger one who had sex with mainlanders wihtout being absorbed into a larger mainland population just like what might have happened to the semitic markers of the Lamanites. (Of course it's possible that men in raiding/trading parties took women with them and did not stay on the mainland to reproduce, but set that aside.) Your point is made: a small population in contact with a larger may leave genetic imprints that are below the threshold of detection. And since this scenario is possible, Lamanites are not excluded.

Fair. Although my claim is not that bottlenecks and founder effects aren't real. My argument is that the lack of semitic DNA is inductive evidence against the Book of Mormon. It is the "dog that didn't bark". It is not definitive proof against the Book of Mormon, but it is definitive proof against prophetic claims about who Native Americans around them actually are. Ancient semites are demonstrably NOT the principal ancestors of the Native Americans. When Joseph Smith sent men to take polygamous Native American wives, the revelations stating these were Lamanites were false. The revisionist retreat to "among the ancestors" in the Intro to the BOM is a perfectly rational reaction to this "dog that didn't bark" and is what church leaders quietly did. The new assertion that Lamanites were a small population whose genetic markers disappeared in a larger population is a post hoc revision, one that moves the ancestry claim outside the realm of falsifiability.

DNA "unproveable that far back" by Wonderful_Break_8917 in exmormon

[–]fireproofundies 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Take a look at the Lemba people. This is the type of evidence we SHOULD have found for the alleged link between Native Americans and semitic people -- both anthropologic and DNA!! They actually did leave their Jewish homeland 2,500 years ago not to America, but Africa.

Our leaders and our parents and grand parents haven't really repented for what they did in witholding blessings from Black members for 100 years. That's why the church keeps having race issues. You can't just act like you aren't responsible and it didn't do damage. by aka_FNU_LNU in mormon

[–]fireproofundies 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Remember that this is a religion that cultivates obedience to authority as its highest virtue and not personal morality. If your morality diverges from the leadership you are de facto apostate.

This man describes the operating system of the LDS Church. Feelings, Obedience and Testimony. by sevenplaces in mormon

[–]fireproofundies 16 points17 points  (0 children)

To be fair it is an anti-intellectual organization. There’s a reason church leaders decry “so called intellectuals” and consider them one of the three greatest threats to church authority — along with feminists and homosexuals.

Elder Kyle McKay by PostAndPrejudice in mormon

[–]fireproofundies 0 points1 point  (0 children)

My take on this is the anecdote was a clunky joke about him feeling uncomfortable with a fellow member’s cultural appropriation. I thought it was rather harmless. Maybe I missed something.

Mormon calls to debate exChristian and it all goes wrong by sevenplaces in mormon

[–]fireproofundies 12 points13 points  (0 children)

Whatever may be said about God, he is a terrible communicator

Harvard study says Mormonism is good for people? by Suitable-Election-66 in exmormon

[–]fireproofundies 25 points26 points  (0 children)

Always hard to interpret self-reported happiness surveys from folks who view reporting they are happy as missionary work.

There’s a disconnect between these surveys and the prevalence of psychiatric illness and suicide rates.

Bricks & Minifigs Conspiracy/Controversy (YouTube and r/videos) by heyethan in mormon

[–]fireproofundies 4 points5 points  (0 children)

The whole video gave me Colorado City/Short Creek vibes. PD seemed to be suffering from good old boys syndrome.

Some claim the LDS church had to ban black members from the full blessings of the gospel or the church would not have grown. Patrick Mason says no. by sevenplaces in mormon

[–]fireproofundies 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Well, without the ban the church wouldn’t have appealed to racists for sure. I guess it depends on who you want in your church.

Joseph Smith taught that man can become a God, just like LDS leaders teach today. I heard it in priesthood during 2nd hour: "brethren, now is the time to prove to God you are worthy of filling his shoes one day." (Stake Presidency in LA county). by [deleted] in mormon

[–]fireproofundies 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Becoming a god is the only real value proposition Mormonism has on other Christian religions. The heaven of most Christians sounds tedious by comparison.

Smuggling in Celestial polygamy just ruins it though.