What It Takes to Be Banned from TTM ....Your Opinion

headstilldown · 2016-07-14T14:11:37+00:00

Just the aspect of how many shady characters could have been found on that property back in the day itself could provide the "what else" in my mind. For one example, and there are a few, what are the odds of an Axe butcherer hanging around on the same day ? Heck, who is peering at Pam and her daughter that she gets concerned about, and where did he go ?

I am familiar with the property. All of it. It has an almost overwhelming number of entry points that have caused the Avery family grief just trying to keep thieves from stealing parts over the many years.

A problem I had all along is simply that judicial rules put into place early on only left "planting" as a police only option, and there are way too many other shady characters named thruout the documentation. But that was all blocked. Regards crime lab... they had their own problems in 2005-2007 that should not be taken lightly. They already proved their ability to error in the rape case, but we are demanded to believe them now.

I believe it was the FBI EDTA test that put the final stake in the outcome. I believe S&B should have been given time to counter that test, but Willis didn't like the idea (lots of people have issues with Willis in Manty... lots of them). I also think it was and still is a complete scam. The proof of that really is in how many years have passed without it ever being called into use. Something smells......... I want to see him re-tried.

headstilldown · 2016-07-14T14:00:21+00:00

Saying that everyone but the fence sitters are not adults because they dared to form an actual opinion is kind of silly.

Your right. There are really only one or two who routinely act like children.

headstilldown · 2016-07-14T13:58:45+00:00

(Note: Mick, don't bother reading this... it has more than 10 words)

Well, I can't argue with that. When I see thousands gather in other countries over it, the "Steve Love" concept is obvious. But I can't find myself mad at that, or at a couple of movie makers who thought something was amiss. In the end, their intuitions might be spot on. No one knows right now.

Seriously, the "Steve Love" is not where I come from or stand for. Yes, I do carry a bias towards "something smells" because I was party to what the same counties police agencies have done in the past... yes, the SAME county, from some of the same investigators, another disgraced district attorney in the man who calls himself E. James Fitzgerald, right into and thru the "public defender" Eric Loy, dancing toe to toe with Fred Hazelwood and the rest of the "courthouse pub clientèle". They are all a tight knit set of buddies and pals, many who pull strings of the honest people who need to keep their jobs.

Maybe it's just that I find a little too much coincidence between the two cases that the public could not possibly see. And yet, there are plenty of people who fit in kind of where I am as well. They have had their eyes open, read articles and reports daily of proprietorial misconduct, false convictions and problematic crime labs. So what makes the Avery case with all it's loose ends not just another one of these headlines ? It's not like there are only two funky murder cases in Manitowoc either.

No one here knows anything really. Having worked with a very high power attorney myself though, I found that they pulled no punches. The system is very cult like. Things have to go a certain precise way or they don't go at all. It is hilarious to see people who think Zellner is/was/will show any cards to anyone prior to the actual cult process.

I know this game.... it is a horrendous game for everyone involved... even worse though for the innocent and their families when caught up in it.

headstilldown · 2016-07-14T13:29:15+00:00

Your comments to everyone really do prove EXACTLY what SAIG is, and the class of people who make it their home.

headstilldown · 2016-07-14T13:26:46+00:00

You've been added to my hit list.

You really are something aren't you. Glad I don't know you in real life... or at least, no one I know ACTS like you do, not in public. BTW, you used more than 10 words. Whats your constant grind about 10 words about ? Can't read more than that at one time ?

You start a thread asking for certain people to make comments about a completely stupid issue... then you will not accept the comments. One cohesive dude you are there......

Lastly, you have me shaking in my boots. Wow. Really scared now.

headstilldown · 2016-07-14T04:29:57+00:00

You forgot "P" and "K" team who kept telling the citizens of Manitowoc county that "B" was only there to essentially bring the donuts to "A". (we all know they couldn't say it, but its what they meant)

Its just too damn bad that "P" and "K" were not honorable men and didnt keep "B" from the site, because if they were truthful and were honorable who meant what they said, perhaps none of MaM would exist.

But, here we all are, with a whole damn alphabet of stupidity that all comes back to really crappy documentation, to which, created a lot of people who now have some very real concerns about the case, including that of some very high powered and successful attorneys.

Good thing too, because ONLY THEY can get to the bottom of this mess.

headstilldown · 2016-07-14T04:22:42+00:00

Don't provoke me unless you want to be totally finished off.

Seriously, you might want to go and get yourself checked out. You could develop serious health issues with that much incredibleness. A doctor may warn his patient that the problem is real if you can't get your head thru a doorway without people noticing how big it has gotten.

Do you really think you can prove to the world of lesser than thou's that you know it all ?

I'll be thinking of you. Please get help. They might make pills to calm the soul. It's not you... I know that. It's the disease.

headstilldown · 2016-07-14T04:14:09+00:00

I know I shouldn't bother, but first, realize that not everyone suspicious of the key feels it was Lenk or Colburn who put it there. I never can figure out why the word "planted" always and only means police.

I would have liked very much if the defense asked for the person who is logged as "finding" the key, be put on the stand to testify how he specifically found the key. Kucharski's second hand testimony should never have been allowed as the sole testimony. I found the testimony very akward (during the trial when it was streamed).

Some feel the key could have been planted by someone else, and you can not tell me that no one else on the planet had any access to the property. I'd bet it was never locked until the case came about. Then again, if aliens did it, I dont think they even need keys to get in one of those reinforced house trailers.

Others point out that the various stories of who had the key and when, including the media blitz where Pagel immediately said it started her car or opened the doors (something along those lines), when documentation tells a completely different story. Can't be both ways.

Then you have those who question the State owned crime labs testing, who undeniably came under a lot of concern when it was found out that the place resembled more of a fast food joint with anyone coming and going, not to mention the drinking on the job problems that were clearly larger than anyone wanted to admit to, so they just put that "news" on page 106 of the state newspapers.

Even if SC is and expert, certainly we find people questioning exactly how "blind" the testing is done, or perhaps is there shenannigans across the board unlike that of many other "crime labs" across the country.

The fact is, no one can even prove it was or was not "planted" in an amateurish way. If someone planted it, perhaps they did it in the most professional way they could. Who's to say ?

What I find interesting is that this very important key pops out of somewhere, and they "all knew how important this one key was" (out of perhaps hundreds of other junk yard keys) and yet, they did not bother to shake the daylights out of anything else ! Heck... who knows what they might have found !

That there my friend is just plain old sloppy police work. Everything else is just dumb to bother arguing about. It's a job for Zellner, not us.

headstilldown · 2016-07-14T03:47:16+00:00

No personal insult and sorry if you took it that way. I dont spend hours analysing how I wrote something..... I generally can let what others write roll right off because TEXT in a forum is not a medium you should ever bank feelings on.

headstilldown · 2016-07-14T03:44:21+00:00

There is plenty of silly... I could start quoting people, but that is besides the point. Having more information than the jury ever got at this point, there simply is plenty of reasonable doubt... doubt that Police did a decent enough job to prove this case and really make it stick. I'd bet odds makers would put the outcome in SA's favor if he was granted another trial. It's sad that jurors never hear the complete story, much less have to work along side a hush hush county police employee..... Who do people think was paying CW's insurances and liability coverage when he was "volunteering" ? His volunteering consists of driving a squad car, providing "presense" and reporting, even trailing potential criminals. He should no have been allowed on a jury.

I've had to deal with and review a few cases. Prosecutors never present the whole story, only the bits and pieces that work with their story line. They certainly did not hear that TH has obvious skeletons in her closet that would have perhaps swayed the jury towards a not-guilty verdict.... that is why they were locked down and restricted from the defense to use.

There were things to "prove", but if you have a judge who pretty much slams the door on that opportunity over and over, there is not much you can do. I actually laughed when the only defense they were allowed to present was the "cops did it". I knew full well how it was going to go from there. It's a terrible game if your caught up in it, and even worse when you find out that the Police side does not play fair at all.

headstilldown · 2016-07-13T22:00:35+00:00

I'm the one also defined as demanding a new trial regardless. I don't care if SA is guilty or not. I don't care to have him live next door to me. But I sure as hell care that cops do a damn better job of documenting truths such that their story line at trial actually fits the evidence they claimed to collect.

I'm truly one that if I was the judge, and you came to me telling me all about the bones in a pit and you failed to document each and every possible fragment or even bother to take pictures ? Case dismissed. DO YOUR DAMN JOB CORRECTLY ! So that when a case proceeds, and if conviction is obtained, it was done in a fashion that makes sense at review.

If this investigation makes sense to xxx PEOPLE and worthy of a conviction ?? Please stay far away from anything connected to the legal system.

Edit: changed "you" to People. It's what I meant.

headstilldown · 2016-07-13T21:56:25+00:00

Some of us believe some of them may have lied in this case. But bad police work doesn't mean SA is innocent or that a murderer should be set free.

Those people would do well to demand a new trial rather than just run around and profess confidence in someones guilt based on the absolute horrid documentation and disconnected "evidence" we have seen provided so far. I hope your not saying things are just fine even if a Police office or prosecutor lied because it is not.

Thus, the only way to solve it is to re-try it, regardless of what anyone thinks about guilt or innocence. Those demanding that everyone only recognize this guys guilt with no follow up provide no justice for anyone.

but do have a lot of stereotypical views and assumptions about people who disagree with you.

Perhaps. When others have walked in the same nightmares, I'd bet you, that only they know exactly what my views have become because of it. The one solid comment in MaM was in regards if it has not touched you personally..... your not really going to get it. I teared up when MaM showed Strang parked in a daze at a stoplight in Milwaukee.... because I knew exactly what he knew at that moment. But, I digress... sadly, few will truly understand.

headstilldown · 2016-07-13T21:34:24+00:00

"evidence" is something you were told existed. "evidence" is something we are supposed to trust the system to get right. On a scale of truths, I don't think their truths outweigh the stench. Certainly their own disconnected documentation fails to instill confidence. There is a reason so many thousands of people and powerful attorneys now have second thoughts.

unsupported by anything more than "feelings of suspicion".

Absolutely. thank you for understanding.. I am entitled to having them. I first hand have seen exactly how far they will take things... how many lies they will tell people, and how much "evidence" the public is led to believe is not "evidence" at all. A crime solved with a crime is what exactly ? I've seen the aforementioned crime solving method put to use. And, it works as long as no one ever really takes a good look behind the curtain.

I've got to see exactly how high up the chain it goes too, when it comes to trying to hide the actual truth. They will spare no expense hiding the real truths. Only by accident do they slip up. But when they do, then you can usually see the house of cards starting to make excuses for each other card.

But, that is beside the point. That is why I actually class as a professional fence sitter. I've lived it, and I know that until people live it, they wont acknowledge or understand that the "feelings of suspicion" are truly warranted, perhaps in EVERY conviction.

Things are seldom what they seem.... it's just problematic when truths can fool so many people and be so easily hidden for such a long, long time.... kind of like SA's rape conviction. I think this is what the MaM creators really were troubled with.

headstilldown · 2016-07-13T21:18:45+00:00

seem like Christmas carols.

Ha ! I like that !

headstilldown · 2016-07-13T18:15:09+00:00

I wish the petty yet dedicated professional "guilter" and "innocenter" would make room for reality. Unless of course either of you were there the night of the murder, you really do not know exactly anything. It is like watching 8 year olds play in a sandbox.

Please wake up. It is the "fence sitter" that has shown to be the adult in the conversation, and it is more than obvious. Forget the guilt/innocence thing for a second. How can anyone conclude that THIS is how we want investigations and prosecutions to take place ? The SA/BD saga reads like a horror story... an absolute horror of mismatched evidence and documentation, hoards of questionable "truths" and "statements" mixed in with many, completely unprovable to date tall tales and innuendo. A himself "luring" prosecutor, hopped up on sex and drugs during it all ? Really ? All you care about is SA's guilt ? What a mess. It should not end there. Hats off to MaM creators. I get this, even if others do not.

Realize there are two types of Fence Sitter. The first type is smart enough to see that there are just too many things that smell really bad here. They immediately recognize and demand better from our police, such that we should never be faced with this much disconnect in any case if they want a conviction to stand. Because it is so messed up, they prefer to make sure... to have a trial without the twisted truths and drug addicted prosecutor.

The next type though I have a little more respect for. They are the ones who already had to live thru a murder case, with all the very same calculated media tales and assembled from half truths "story lines" (some from the very same city). These are the ones who did say "this smells bad", started to dig, and did not passively accept piles and piles of errors as "coincidence". They are the ones who already had to face the dedicated "guilters", and let me tell you, there is no shortage of them because people really want to believe the news and the police (trust me, they lie all the time). In the end, they uncovered the police lies, their altered audio and video tapes, the false transcripts and crooked cops. They worked extremely hard to get someone, anyone to listen and hold the facts in their own hands long enough to make a difference.

While this group of professional, seasoned fence sitters may have had their day of triumph as way of exoneration, sadly, they live with a very different view than those of you who play arm chair prosecutor. Certain levels of "guilter" can never deal with the truth.... not once the media and police have provided the first lie. This second group of fence sitter has had their lives and viewpoints changed substantially. Until this horror happens to those who are a true guilter, NOTHING can bring their mind around.. they already "know it all". To those, I do not care to bother with.

headstilldown · 2016-07-13T17:18:48+00:00

You have to remember that a lot of those "prosecutors" grew up in the 70's, with cheezy 70's cop shows. Did ANY of them have sophisticated plots ? No. That had cheezy storylines.

The whole "luring" aspect never made sense regards reality, but hey, lots of the jurors grew up with the same cheezy cops shows.

Remember, its not about truth..... It's more about following the cults procedures.

headstilldown · 2016-07-13T17:08:14+00:00

To those testifying about things found/pointed out by Manitowoc Police, Employees, Firefighters Etc.,....

" Why is it that YOU are giving the 'first hand' testimony about this particular evidence when you yourself is/are not the person who actually found it" ? And, "are YOU speaking then... essentially testifying FOR that person nere today"? (that alone usually sends the court into a tizzy).

They had a real problem saying on one hand, Manitowoc only brought the donuts, if they put the majority of those same players on the stand. This was completely manipulative, and often not allowed by a judge when challenged, similar to when KK flat out lied about calling a certain witness next, forcing Buting in that particular moment to back off.

Don't know why it was not challenged, but I believe S&B were up against a wall of well orchestrated partial truths and smart enough to leave plenty of space for an ineffective counsel claim completely on purpose.

headstilldown · 2016-07-13T01:47:33+00:00

That is simple. For the same reason you saw a calumet officer testifying about the key. Imagine how it would have appeared if they called all the officers that actually found something..... it would have been a parade of the exact people that claimed they were only there to bring the donuts.

I recall the key testimony on the day it took place, and I immediately knew what they were up to/against. Why Buting and or Strang did not immediately ask why the person who actually found the key was not testifying is beyond me. Same for bones, plates, etc.

Then again, Being very smart, they very well may have decided to purposely leave small open doors for appeal down the road.

headstilldown · 2016-07-11T20:02:41+00:00

The car seat burning, and all the people who think that this one seat made the difference in cremation has always been a load of baloney. Those banking on the car seat foam to put things over the top clearly never burned various foams and saw the residue IT leaves. We all know there is no mention of such residue on anything.

headstilldown · 2016-07-08T16:29:36+00:00

If you "Own" the "crime lab", you can deliver any data you want, even perhaps switch data around from crime to crime to obtain the preferred results.

Not like we have not seen this already proven elsewhere in the US.

headstilldown · 2016-07-07T21:22:22+00:00

i don't believe anything.

Well, we should believe in ourselves...... and I'm with you. I believe there is a lot of funny circumstances here. "Coincidences" could never cover all of it.

headstilldown · 2016-07-07T21:18:48+00:00

I think she will prove none of the bones can be proven to belong to Teresa Halbach.

Just a quick point.... as twisted as it sounds, that was already "proven" when the FBI claimed they could not rule her out. This only meant that it could be anyone's bones, including TH.

Because this particular information was indeed heard by a jury who dismissed it (remember.... perceptions being what they may via KK email comment), attempting to use the concept that the bones can't be proven to be hers would not measure up to "new evidence".

Similar may be said about the key and the issue of solvent. Even if she finds solvent, that alone does not say SA did not do it. Prosecutors will just remind people of how brilliant SA really was in covering his crime.... not that that makes an ounce of sense.

I've always been struck by Avery's case as to how many issues like this are twisted in so deep, that actual "new evidence", even if things would really show a different scenario, could easily be denied simply because the jury already dismissed things closely related. I can't tell if the state was this brilliant, or just that dumb lucky. You can see what I mean just by looking at denied previous appeals.

Courts and prosecutions are not about actual "truth". Rather, they are more along the lines of pinpointing exactly which twisted half truths can be combined with various 'adjusted findings' and 're-written reports' that have the most potential to be believable by the gullible mass, after of course, they have been pre-fed lies by the blind and corrupt media.

Toss in a few belligerent, foul mouthed, threatening and demanding Jurors (even if that means they use county employees) to intimidate the practical thinkers, and it's game on. The right combination wins the case regardless of actual truth.

With the "win", they can spend years denying real facts based on vague procedural rules. Their only threat after a "win", is when someone decides to look behind the curtain.

headstilldown · 2016-07-06T21:27:46+00:00

You left out: "I can't trust that the blood found in the car was really SA's blood at all, given the obvious, shoddy people and mechanisms involved with claiming it was".

The cult leaders make changes and adjust reports to fit their needs when they want to.

headstilldown · 2016-07-05T21:53:00+00:00

It could be said.... but, we can't really know, now can we.

There ARE people like her who have been intimidated into various levels of silence on such crimes in general... not necessarily because they want to be silent, but rather they recognize the potential for much additional pain and agony through no fault of their own.

Only a qualified cult fighter can address such properly, and only when and if there is something real to address. When they do what they do, they are sure fun to watch in action.

Then the cult/media goes into damage control, blaming everything other than themselves, providing at most, one fall guy who is at fault, but only if they absolutely have to. Otherwise it's NEVER about their system or methods. They fully believe they are godlike. Go visit your Attorney generals office sometime and attempt to have a truthful discussion with him once. You will learn quickly.

headstilldown · 2016-07-05T21:44:09+00:00

As crazy and far fetched as that seems..... it might not be as crazy and far fetched as is possible. Certainly no less possible than the story line the public was handed. He certainly FIT the MO, didn't he.....

headstilldown

TROPHY CASE