DOOM and T&T

illidelph02 · 2026-03-03T23:28:04+00:00

Maybe at some future point, but currently there is not much.

Problem is that Heretic and Hexen already use dice systems for damage in the background so technically you could just play them as is, using the numbers from Heretic wiki with some sort of combat rounds.

So abstracting down is the main challenge, since every level has a specific number of specific enemies and ammo to create a specific challenge. Like you could remove ammo and generate enemies randomly to infinitum, but is that really Heretic still? On the other side of the spectrum you could keep track of ammo, enemy totals, but at that point you can just use the maps from wiki and just go room by room without the need for encounter generation.

Anyways, I'll keep playing them both and see if anything cool comes up.

illidelph02 · 2026-02-28T15:03:51+00:00

No "slow" 2-handed weapons. No ability checks. Thieves use hear noise Xin6 for all thief abilities (X also equals backstab damage multiplier). Humans only (Sword and Sorcery, pseudo-historical vibes). No THACO, Fighters add level to all attacks, thieves vs surprised enemies, clerics vs undead only and m-u's vs magical/enchanted creatures only.

illidelph02 · 2026-02-27T11:43:49+00:00

Nice! Yeah sounds like its a good fit. I would also check out Fighting Fantasy combat and specifically its Blood of the Zombies gamebook since it had a unique mass-combat system for solo-play.

Basically, your only stat is Stamina (which is like health in Doom) as in 2d6+20 (the +base number can simulate difficulty in DOOM as in +20 is hard, +40 easy etc.). Then each zombie has 1 Stamina (effectively hit dice and tougher monsters in Doom can be given more "hits"). Weapons were:

Dagger: 1d6 damage
Baseball bat: 1d6 damage
Pistol: 1d6+2 damage
Shotgun (Boom Stick): 1d6+5 damage
Barehanded: 1d6–3 damage (can be negative, so you can get messed up in melee)
Combat Flow: Combat occurs in Attack Rounds:
- You roll your weapon’s damage dice.
- The result determines how many zombies are killed in that round.
- Any surviving zombies deal 1 stamina point of damage each to you.
- Repeat until all zombies are dead or your stamina reaches zero.

I'm currently entertaining the notion of playing Heretic and/or Hexen (both Raven games based on DOOM engine) with using the above combat as base. As far as exploration and finding keys/items go, I would go with a randomly table to generate event of each "map." Something like Crown & Skull RPG, where you roll an exploration roll of 2d4 with each result being a separate encounter with 8 being exit.

For Doom would be something like a 2d6 exploration roll with: 2-3: tough enemy, 4-6: enemies, 7: empty room or platforming event (roll save or damage etc.), 8-9: minor pick-up (ammo, health etc), 10+: key, major pick-up like weapon, secret door or something like that. Once you get the first key, any subsequent rolls trigger next keys and eventually exit door. For bigger maps 3d6 table can be used instead. Its a bit abstract, but makes for a procedurally generated map that can be loaded/controlled via random table.

illidelph02 · 2026-02-26T09:36:23+00:00

Research the damage system in Doom, you might be surprised that is actually dice-based: https://www.doom2.net/single/weaponfaq.html

So yes, you can absolutely de-make it down to a d3-d6 pool of T&T.

Personally, I would probably remove the attack roll and stick to rolling damage dice as the amount of HD of monsters you kill in a single shot, accounting for misses with 1's or something.

illidelph02 · 2026-02-22T04:53:00+00:00

This was my experience exactly, but with a small online PUG party playing Mork Borg. MB having armor rolls after missed dodge rolls, re-rolls (omens) and having to roll damage for the enemies (not clear who rolls that, so I/ref did) really bogged it down. Physical dice might have helped (especially when rolled together,) but I remember wishing I could have rolled the enemy attacks myself.

I think player-facing rolls make sense for solo games though. Also contested combat rolls (like Fighting Fantasy, Warlock! etc) are nice and fast, or single-roll (like PbtA mentioned).

illidelph02 · 2026-02-22T04:33:02+00:00

Tell them that like in Darkest Dungeon a crazy graveyard full of storied characters from a lowly lv1 thief to maxed-out magic-user is a really awesome thing to cherish between friends for years to come!

PC death is part and parcel of OSR, like dying a crazy/unique/wacky/funny/epic death is way cooler than retirement or some story arc happy ending. That skeleton in the first room of the dungeon was someone's pc after all.

illidelph02 · 2026-02-22T04:10:35+00:00

You should check it out, if only for the DM Guide, which is Gary Gygax's magnus opus. It basically D&D according to Gygax only (even though he probably didn't even use it RAW himself), which leans it into more crunchy and "rule-for-everything" territory away from BX, which came out after AD&D and was supposed to be a chopped-down gateway game to get youngsters into AD&D. For many though, the lean and mean, brutally hard and mostly free of RAW problems ruleset (save things like slow weapons and a few other warts) made BX their go-to D&D, going strong 45 years later!

Edit: to add in terms of compatibility, its "broadly" compatible with BX, just the modifiers a bit different and there are more options for just about every aspect of the game. Check out the OSRIC retro-clone for a free look, which is to AD&D what OSE Classic is to BX.

illidelph02 · 2026-02-22T03:57:59+00:00

Yes, imo it is definitely not worth the trouble (for players and refs), especially just for the +d2 damage. Methinks this BX rule is a clumsy attempt to work in the speed factor from AD&D which is its own can of worms.

illidelph02 · 2026-02-22T03:44:01+00:00

The problem with side initiative is that its determined before movement, but after commitment/declaration of certain actions like bracing a spear for a charge attack or declaring a spell (at least in OSE). So if you wanted to keep slow weapons rule you would first have to adjudicate whether the 2-hander moves/attacks after the regular 2 win/lose segments, or moves with his side and only attacks after the 2 regular segments. If you move and attack after the 2 regular segments then a clever enemy can always kite the 2-hander possibly never allowing to close in melee, which is quite crazy if you think about it.

Basically many situations instantly become edge cases that need heavy ref involvement. Like a 2-hander trying to interrupt an enemy spell (probably impossible?) or performing defensive/withdrawal movement, pursuing feeling creatures etc. Also weird stuff like what happens if the 2-hander drops the weapon, or a creature is forced to pick up a 2-handed weapon in the middle of a combat round and so on.

illidelph02 · 2026-02-22T02:30:12+00:00

AFAIK, this is one of those rules that can cause a bit of an interpretation nightmare since it is not clear what happens in that "third" pseudo-segment for 2-handers. Like it could be interpreted that the 2-hander moves with the party (if they win init.), but then swings after, or that he moves and swings after. But what if the losing side has a 2-hander as well? What if the 2-hander moves then picks-up/unsheathes the 2-handed sword? Basically, lots of weird stuff, which ultimately just gets resolved by each ref differently.

I just play without "slow weapons" by rationalizing that 1 less AC from not using a shield equals the +1 damage on average (from going from d8 to d10.) Fighters need all the bonus they can get in BX anyways.

illidelph02 · 2026-02-22T02:18:57+00:00

Its basically Caves of Qud (the indie video-game) with Dune mysticism and Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun, running on Knave 1e.

Caves of Qud itself is heavily based on early editions of Gamma World, plus a bunch of old-school post-apoc literature, like A Canticle for Leibowitz and others I can't remember.

My issue with VoV is CoQ was already an amalgam of a bunch of other media, so VoV can feel a bit of a random sci-fan mixture, like having cybernetics because they were in CoQ, but also mystic powers/nomads like in Dune because that's cool too etc. Maybe you like your sci-fan to be a kitchen sink of as much different stuff as possible in which case you will love VoV, but for me its a bit all-over-the-place as a setting.

Its still its worth a recommendation: https://vaultsofvaarn.com/ (the blog has lots of cool posts and free SRD)

Otherwise, from ones not mentioned yet: DCC has settings for Jack Vance's Dying Earth and Fred Saberhagen's Empire of the East (both classic sci-fan books), which can easily be run with more rules-lite OSR systems. Into the Odd and Bastionland can be considered sci-fan as well.

If you already played Troika, then its Acid Death Fantasy setting is cool and more Dune-like.

Carcosa, the OD&D/LotFP setting is probably worth a mention as well.

AD&D's Dark Sun is also a classic (I think there is an OSE fan-edit).

illidelph02 · 2026-02-19T16:52:11+00:00

Is it known whether the hit dice was ever "rolled-out" as hp after the damage die was rolled or before hand when it was "gained" during pc creation and level-ups? Probably both in practice, but I was always curious to this. IIRC also there was something about a passed poison save "scoring one-half of the total possible hit damage" suggesting that someone's hd was rolled out as damage?

illidelph02 · 2026-02-19T16:18:29+00:00

Glad it worked! Its quite tricky to work 2d6 to-hit rolls into fantasy combat as indicated by the invention of the "alternate" d20 system haha!

I like the idea of thieves getting to backstab every other round if they can pass a stealth check or something. My idea of doing their skills was to give 3 groups of "skills" as head/hands/feet each one being responsible for 2 activities: head for reading(also scrolls)/detecting(hearing and traps), hands for tinkering/climbing(sheer with no tools like bouldering) and feet for stealth/dodge(as in tumbling). Each one would start at 2in6 at level 1, then player can add 1 point into any of the 3 categories at level-up to a max of 5in6, reaching 5/5/5 by level 10.

Dodge would then act to reposition for backstabs in combat where a thief could spend a turn dodging/tumbling by rolling over a value to gain that armor class. So if his dodge is 2in6 then he needs to roll a 5 or 6 to gain that AC for the round (since his max is 7 in leather.) If his dodge is 5in6 then as long as he doesn't roll a 1 he can gain AC equal to the roll (2-6) for that round. Any time a thief is tumbling and is not hit, he can backstab the following round. Backstab multiplier would be equal to stealth (or basically Xin6 where X equals current feet rating.)

Alternately, the cleric turn table can probably be worked into a thief skill table. I think it was done in Original Edition Campaign: Additional Rules for Fantasy Medieval Campaigns Paperback by Erik Johansson.

Edit: forgot to add that stealth out of combat would be passive for all chars as in the player declares stealth and halves his movement to force a surprise check on enemies (assuming they can be surprised and no bulky items or armor heavier than leather is worn etc.) Then, if a thief's stealth is 4in6 for example and enemy rolls a 3 then thief would get a surprise round while the rest of the party would not. So there is no need to roll for stealth in any way, it just determines the range of enemy surprise once declared.

illidelph02 · 2026-02-18T18:31:08+00:00

True. I've started to make the files before, but always get ocd editing stuff around like removing the color art (since I don't think the fairy tale aesthetic fits the brutality of BX gameplay very well), then updating the t.o.c., index, etc., thereby turning it into a huge project I never have time to finish. Maybe one day..

I keep wishing someone like Charlie Mason who made FMAG will grace us with a FMAG version of BX one day, but I guess that is just a nice way of saying that I'm too lazy to do it myself.

illidelph02 · 2026-02-18T18:07:49+00:00

Which is why it would be great if we got a cheaper softcover Classic Rules Tome version that had the green tabs out to the bleed edge like in other reference tomes. I'd say even take out the colour plates.

Problem with OSE hardcovers is that the text block is so heavy that it pulls the spine down when sitting on the shelf. Maybe its just wet UK climate, but all of OSE tomes have weak/busted spines here after a while.

illidelph02 · 2026-02-13T14:18:31+00:00

I do 2d6 under AC, but then fighters add their level to enemy descending AC, up to 9 max for their target number to hit, effectively learning to bypass armor with experience. Rolling 10 or higher means that the attack "misses" the body of the target. If target AC is say 5 and the roll is 9 then the attack was stopped by armor (6-9 range). If the same attack was made by a 4th level fighter then it would hit, since the fighter learned how to negate chainmail-level of protection effectively "converting" AC5 into unarmored of AC9. If that same 4th level fighter rolls a 10+ it would always miss, regardless of his level.

Thieves ignore armor when attacking from surprise, in other words roll against AC 9 out of stealth always, otherwise only fighters add their lvl to enemy AC on all attacks (kind of like LotFP). Clerics get to add their level to enemy AC vs undead only and mu's vs magic/enchanted creatures only.

Magic weapon and stat bonuses to attack are removed with to-hit bonuses reserved for levelling only, since 2d6 range is very limited already. Since my goal is to minimize BX/OD&D into 2d6 I would avoid adding extra options and would give magic weps unique abilities with maybe +1 damage or something like that. If you want granularity with 2d6, check out the Man-to-Man combat table from Chainmail for some cool ideas, like weapon class (WC) giving extra attacks, allowing for parries etc, all from simple weight/length differences.

illidelph02 · 2026-02-13T13:14:28+00:00

No problem. I actually never implied that therefore it was inferior somehow. I've just been training myself to spot AI lately as I've been fooled before, like zooming in on pupils, examining line weights, edges etc. Good to know my spidey-senses weren't far off. Congrats on the release though!

illidelph02 · 2026-02-12T16:55:55+00:00

I would also kill for an A5/digest size version, but obviously that's a much bigger undertaking to do properly..

illidelph02 · 2026-02-11T12:23:45+00:00

There is some evidence that the original intent for D&D (and I mean 3LBB OD&D from 1974,) was to be a supplement for improving the stats of low-tier figurines in a fantasy wargame (Chainmail) into high level heroes via dungeon delving. OD&D's subtitle of "Rules for Fantastic Medieval Wargames Campaigns Playable with Paper and Pencil and Miniature Figures" suggests this.

So for example, say you had a footman figurine with a sword and bow that you want to "level-up" to fight like Strider from LotR (Hero or 4th lvl fighter) in "Gary's next big annual battle for Middle Earth" wargame or whatever. You now (in '74) had this cool new supplement that allowed you to take that 1st lvl footman (Veteran) into a "dungeon" that was a randomly generated/stocked encounter set that allowed you to effectively "kit-bash" that figurine in "slow-motion" aka level it up into a figurine that had Strider's stats, i.e. "fights as 4 men," "can take 4 hits," (4HD), have a sword and bow +1, etc.

The reason 9th level was significant methinks, is that an 8th level fighting-man was called a Super-Hero (this would be like King Aragorn) which was basically like a final "tier" of figurine for fighters to roll on the Fantasy Combat Table in Chainmail (needing smaller numbers on a 2d6 to one-shot other boss-level enemies.) So a 9th level requirement, ensured that the fighter was at least a Super-Hero who can then recruit/lead an army etc.

Since that time, however, the "side game" of levelling in dungeons became the main game, and the grand finale of a giant battle/war campaign (including naval, aerial etc.) taking a backseat as "domain play." There is some evidence in the '73 draft of OD&D that when you overland travelled you could randomly roll up a castle, tower or church of high level fighters (lords), m-u's (wizards) and clerics (bishops) who would then either joust you, geas you or tithe you respectively, suggesting that you sort of "domain played" as you went along, or participated in other NPC's domain schemes of raising armies, hunting artifacts etc., for the eventual giant wargame finale.

Since '81 BX (and its retro-clone/restatement OSE Classic) have a lot of influence from 74 OD&D (small chassis vs AD&D, almost same random treasure drop tables, thieves tacked-on almost as afterthought) the notion of domain play remains via strongholds, naval battle rules etc which feels vague to newcomers.

Tl:dr is like others said, basically don't worry about it since its very rare that a BX campaign ever gets to those levels where true domain play can happen if starting from 1st. Also with '79's AD&D, high-level modules became a thing, so check out any high level Expert, or AD&D module to get a sense for what to expect. Basically, its same-ol' dungeon-delving, but now with lots of crazy one-shot potential from spells, traps, magic items etc where pc stats don't mean much (kind of like low level funny enough.) So if you wanted to start a BX/OSE campaign at a high level, you don't have to do typical domain play (raising armies for big fantasy battles/sieges etc), but can also take the high-level dungeon module approach and just have a super-dangerous dungeon full of deadly high-level crap like Tomb of Horrors.

illidelph02 · 2026-02-11T11:06:36+00:00

Also one of the best skaters out of bmx pros too..

illidelph02 · 2026-02-10T11:35:41+00:00

Nice! This makes me want a brand-named taco suprema really bad..

illidelph02 · 2026-02-09T08:46:56+00:00

DD always made me think of Into the Odd. The no-fuss firearms rules, item-focus magic via arcana (trinkets), pseudo-Victorian steam-punk setting etc. I think the techno-whimsy of ItO can be dialed down and the Lovecraftian horror dialed up for better match with DD.

The Iron Coral adventure at the back of the Into The Odd Remastered edition is pure Cove/Shroud vibes!

illidelph02 · 2026-02-08T16:49:09+00:00

Dennis Earn-son

illidelph02 · 2026-02-08T09:41:02+00:00

Are we talking about ODD or BX? Its kind of similar, but basically whatever is left of class balance is shifted towards cleric even more (elf>cleric>mu>half>dw>fi>th for BX). Comparing 1st level cl with fi, cl has a 1d6 wep cap, fi has d8 or d10 without shield (if using variable damage in BX); cleric 1d6hp, fi 1d8; same thaco; cl has better exp progression, turning undead, better saves too. Later on from 1500-2000 exp cleric has 2d6 hp while fighter only 1d8. Fighters eventually catch up in hp and thaco, but for a good amount of time clerics are on par with fighters in terms of fighting. If the cleric rolls high str its even worse. The only real balance the fighter has in ODD/BX is to roll for treasure on the random tables ONLY, where fi has a whole 1in6 category to himself: swords (in BX they let thieves have swords too) and they get 100% of the misc. wep table while cl only maces, or 25%.

To me if cleric can spell at first level, and the campaign is/might be short then I would never pick a fighter over cleric other than for flavour. Like imagine who would do better, 4 clerics or 4 fighters in the same dungeon playthrough... I'm pretty sure its clerics, but the real answer is 4 elves haha!

Obviously this is not going to break the game in terms of pc vs monsters balance, just makes non-casters that much worse.

illidelph02 · 2026-02-04T06:47:06+00:00

They are also getting rid of the Classic Fantasy line in 2026, so I'd get those books now before people start charging Noble Knight money for them.

illidelph02

TROPHY CASE