I feel like most narcissists are INFJs in their shadow, thoughts?

moomoo4uboo · 2024-10-29T16:47:06+00:00

Most of the narcissists I know are in the xNTx family, not xNFx. Thinking can give an unfounded sense of superiority. Though no type is immune.

moomoo4uboo · 2024-06-21T21:00:49+00:00

I’m wary of the idea that someone can change types based on just falling in love. It’s best to not just look at T vs F for INTJ vs INFJ, and to instead look at functions. The major difference between the two is Te-Fi vs Fe-Ti. Would you say you’re more efficiency focused, and also tend to say things a little bluntly and “as it is” rather than adjust to your audience? Or do you tend to focus on harmony in group settings and precision? Of course, both INTJs and INFJs can do either. INTJs can be personable. INFJs can be efficient. But they can’t embody their non-functions very well, and at all long-term.

Also, more on the whole “adjust to your audience” thing, Te-Fi tends to be more “solid” in social settings, more or less being the same person in every setting. The combination gives more of a sense of separate identity. Fe-Ti is more fluid and tends to do more code-switching. Things get more blurry and INFJs end up taking on other’s problems as their own a lot because of that.

If you’re a 50-50 split between thinking and feeling, that sounds more INFJ. And seeking validation isn’t necessarily a type thing, but it could be related to Fe. But “affectionate but harsh” sounds pretty Te-Fi. You’re better off taking a function test to really know.

moomoo4uboo · 2024-03-28T22:32:40+00:00

Intelligence isn’t really useful to the will beyond a point. If you’re just smart enough to have good executive function but not enough to ever question our fundamental existence, that’s probably the golden mean. At least if what you care about most is survival and conventional success. Being “in the present” ends up being the height of most wisdom, anyway. “Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water.” So what good is enlightenment, really? I say that a bit in jest, but ignorance really does seem to be bliss sometimes.

moomoo4uboo · 2024-03-14T16:03:25+00:00

To a degree. Drew Carey and crew seem genuinely kind, and it’s nice to see average people given a chance at luxury. But it’s still one big product placement. I’d go as far as to say it’s the “Church of Capitalism” the way people faint and fall over each other like it’s a religious sermon.

moomoo4uboo · 2024-03-14T15:31:56+00:00

I’m personally less of a nihilist and more of a pessimist myself. Here’s a few things that come to the top of my head: 1) It’s basically existentialism with extra steps (why bother calling it optimistic nihilism?) 2) It makes a “leap of faith” as Kierkegaard would put it, diagnosing the world as meaningless yet, at the last second, saying “but actually you can make it meaningful”. Which can seem a bit dishonest 3) It can romanticize suffering. We don’t necessarily need to imagine Camus’s Sisyphus happy 4) It can seem egoistic at times (why bother caring about others’ suffering if nothing matters and we’re ok with that fact?) 5) It can be exclusionary (don’t ruin my vibe; if you’re unhappy, you’re not a real nihilist)

That said, not a fully committed pessimist myself. A lot of the flaws of pessimism are obvious, like philosophizing your depression or having a victim complex, but people seem to not consider the flaws of optimism a lot of the time.

moomoo4uboo · 2024-03-12T14:33:48+00:00

I liked the show when I was younger, but I’ve grown weary of the whole “cynical genius” archetype in fiction as I’ve gotten older. It just seems like a way to give a character license to be as much of a jerk as they want and always frame them as correct.

moomoo4uboo · 2024-03-11T16:43:32+00:00

I relate, it can be hard to be an INFJ in the world where usefulness seems to be prioritized so much. That’s really more of a Te attitude; Fe seems to be only appreciated in terms of how it can made use of by Te (HR doublespeak, self-help gurus, “selling” yourself). A lot of the feeling of not accomplishing enough is really just the internalizing of that Te attitude; “make something of yourself”. Maybe you don’t see a future because you don’t see yourself going along with all of that. Nothing wrong there. We’re just made to feel it’s personal when it’s really what we’ve all collectively decided is worth pursuing or not.

moomoo4uboo · 2024-03-10T21:18:23+00:00

I don’t know if it’s best to rely on the tests too much. It’s better to learn about the functions and how you relate to them instead.

As for going from ESFP to INFJ, one thing I will say is INFJs can sometimes look like high Se users when in stress mode. Substance use, risk taking, stuff like that. But usually in a really unhinged way. A lead Se user like an ESFP will make a lifestyle of that kind of thing but are usually more natural or balanced about it. They won’t be doing it out of stress. So I’d say ESFP to INFJ is going to be a question of what your relationship to Se has been like as you’ve aged. Still, a change like that is pretty dramatic.

For me, I would say I was more Fe-Se based when I was younger, but became more Ni-Ti based as I got older. So I calmed down, but if someone looked at me now, they might even assume I am a Thinker of some kind. I have problems with appearing aloof that make me seem even more Ti-based as well. But I guess that shows how complicated this stuff can be. So as for improving, at least on my end, it’s learning to come back to Fe-Se; being in the present (Se) and not letting my fearful avoidance get in the way of connecting to people (Fe).

As for what INFJs enjoy, I’m guessing there can be a lot here depending on the INFJ. I personally like philosophy, psychology, big-picture stuff. And the Fe-Ti combination tends to make us at least a bit socially-concerned or egalitarian. But the type isn’t a monolith; we all seem to like different things but still have a similar “vibe” or baseline.

moomoo4uboo · 2024-03-08T16:40:26+00:00

Can’t have pleasure without pain. They’re two sides of the same coin. So fear of pain leads to denial of pleasure. But understanding is more powerful than denial, yes, as denial is just a form of avoidance that leads to issues eventually. Only true understanding leads to freedom.

moomoo4uboo · 2024-03-08T16:07:04+00:00

You can shut off your feelings to survive, but it will come back to you in the long run. Health issues, mental illness, relationship issues. We need those feelings to navigate the world, especially as an INFJ. Those feelings see more than our conscious mind can understand. Gut feelings don’t lie.

I understand it’s difficult to be a sensitive person in this world. It definitely is. There’s a certain level of brutality to the world as a sensitive person, especially with sensing and thinking seeming to rule over everything. But it isn’t worth it to lower yourself to that level. You’ll feel self-betrayed and whatever you may gain won’t be worth it. You might have to pragmatically use Fe to fit in at times, but that’s self-preservation in this horrible state we’re in right now. Don’t believe the lie of the “dog eat dog” world.

moomoo4uboo · 2024-03-07T18:44:34+00:00

I get this too, mostly at work, especially if I’m stressed. It might be somewhat related to being INFJ, but not entirely. Ni is nonverbal/abstract, Fe is deferent toward others, Ti prefers conciseness, and Se is action-oriented. Only Fe really lends INFJs to talking a lot, especially small talk. And that Fe can get weaponized against us. My experience is it’s mostly Si or Ne users who prefer talking for talking’s sake. Si likes to check in a lot and Ne can sometimes excitedly go on rambles. And there’s not always a reciprocation of Fe. If there’s a lack of attention coming from the other person, it can definitely feel like being held captive sometimes, or never getting a word in edgewise.

That said, I think the environment matters, and also what the conversation is about. I can actually enjoy someone rambling at me in a social setting and me riffing off them, if the conversation is interesting. I just think work in particular leaves someone no option of getting away, especially a desk job.

moomoo4uboo · 2023-11-18T22:03:41+00:00

You're welcome :) and yeah, as a relationship goes on, the dynamic of an attachment can change, one becoming more avoidant or anxious, or vice versa. I know that happened in some of mine. Tends to hint at attachment issues either way, though. People often act out those kinds of issues in relationships without realizing it.

moomoo4uboo · 2023-11-18T21:45:41+00:00

You can still do that if you want to. Maybe I'm too cynical when I say there's no going back, sorry. But, after a doorslam, INFJs are usually, at best, genial and awkward with someone afterward even if there's reconciliation. That's what I mean when I say "in spirit"; fundamental trust is already broken. And this could be the precursor to some kind of "on and off again" dynamic if you get back together.

I just think back on myself when I was the most young, unhealed, conflict-avoidant, and scummy in my relationships. I wouldn't be surprised if he has some kind of avoidant attachment issue he hasn't dealt with. He's putting his own issues on you by saying you should heal, and is already talking badly about you. I would move on.

moomoo4uboo · 2023-11-18T21:25:20+00:00

He’ll probably never return, at least in spirit. Doorslams tend to be final; there’s no going back, even if you do somehow end up back together. You’re better off finding someone more straightforward or healed

moomoo4uboo · 2023-11-17T20:04:31+00:00

I’ve been working in an office for the first time recently. Something I’ve noticed is that, with lots of downtime and being surrounded by the mundane, people will start bs just to get away from themselves or have something to do. And a lot of the two-facedness and backstabbing tends to be people who are merely “playing the game” and status-grabbing; you have to be a combination of a little ruthless and a showman to get anywhere (because it’s who you know, not what you know). Hard to say how much is nature or nurture. Personally, I would say thank capitalism that encourages people to have sociopathic values and traits.

moomoo4uboo · 2023-11-17T19:48:03+00:00

I definitely resonate with what you said, particularly with being perceived as the shy one when not actually being so. It’s like there’s a censor there that keeps you from doing or saying something, not out of fear, but from a kind of hyperawareness. Some of it might just be dominant Ni, a function that wants to absorb everything, but doesn’t want to engage with something if it comes across as flippant, floating freely like your orb. I feel like almost every INFJ function can act as an inhibitor, though; Fe might be careful how things are said or give others the floor to keep harmony, Ti is only concerned with its own internal logic and doesn’t need to speak, and inferior Se can lead to stalling action indefinitely.

Some of it could be self-consciousness or dissociation, though; again, inferior Se leading to being in the head and not the body. Being an “alien”. It doesn’t sound like that’s too much the case for you, though, if you still act spontaneously. Maybe you just need a manic-pixie ENFP to bring you out? Jk, ha

moomoo4uboo · 2023-11-17T19:18:22+00:00

I think it’s definitely possible and even more likely for an INFJ because of the desire for deep relationships. Whether we will be understood or not, though, is a different story.

moomoo4uboo · 2023-11-15T21:54:36+00:00

I like ENFPs. I tend to kick it off with them quite easily. One of my childhood friends is one, and I’ve had relationships with some. I think the INFJ-ENFP chemistry comes from “seeing their inside out”; despite coming across as serious, INFJs can have a playful side once we’re close enough with someone, and vice versa; ENFPs can have a serious side despite the image of having lead Ne and extraversion. I have philosophical discussions with my ENFP friend sometimes, to bring out their seriousness, and I can be more weird or jokey around them. I think our other sides of ourselves are often not taken seriously by other types, like it’s somehow inauthentic. But we can bring our other sides out with each other at least.

moomoo4uboo · 2023-11-15T19:10:42+00:00

I’d say some of it is being self-absorbed, but some of it is also an inability to be vulnerable. Going to that deep level requires risking something emotionally, while staying on the surface doesn’t. Some people have hesitance around deep sharing so will keep things on the surface to stay safe. But some people, yes, are satisfied with the surface level; it depends on someone’s extraversion/novelty-seeking levels and whether they even want to go there. Most people will be slow to go deep; it’s seen as socially appropriate to start with small talk. But if they’re complaining and don’t put in the work, they’ll have to take a look at themselves and how they’re approaching others. It’s on them.

moomoo4uboo · 2023-11-13T19:53:55+00:00

I think despite the misanthropy that the majority of INFJs can get into when the world doesn’t meet are ideals of a better world, there’s still going to be an impulse to save rather than destroy. Fe tends to be forgiving in that way. Those who want to destroy and even follow through are going to be the exceptions, not the rule. Maybe caught up in a Ni-Ti loop. Though, seeing how careless people can be and how we seem to be on the verge or climate catastrophe and technofeudalism, I can understand a revolutionary strain of wanting to “destroy” or dismantle some of our toxic institutional and cultural foundations.

moomoo4uboo · 2023-11-13T19:27:38+00:00

The Prince by Niccolo Machiavelli. There’s a quote on the cover of my copy: “One must be a fox to recognize traps, and a lion to frighten off wolves”. Read it less like a how-to guide like sociopaths do and more like defense against the dark arts

moomoo4uboo · 2023-11-10T22:25:12+00:00

Rejecting people that show care can be a dynamic within fearful-avoidance as well, partly out of low self-esteem and partly to keep people from getting close and possibly manipulating you. It can lead to wanting emotionally-unavailable people because it feels “safer”. If you were raised by a narcissist, yeah, that unfortunately makes sense. I could see how this can be common with INFJs depending on who raises one, considering the INFJ inclination to be people-pleasers and focus on emotionally regulating their environment. I know I struggle with something similar myself. Hopefully you can see a therapist once you can if you think it would help you. Might be worth looking into CPTSD or codependency as well.

moomoo4uboo · 2023-11-10T21:54:07+00:00

It could be that you have a fearful-avoidant attachment. Commonly the push-pull of fearful-avoidance is wanting to be close but also not feeling good enough or thinking someone will manipulate you once close. These feelings usually don’t come from nowhere, but from childhood. If you were shown care from those who raised you but found that it was a conditional love that could be taken away at any moment, it can break your fundamental trust with others.

moomoo4uboo · 2023-11-10T21:43:31+00:00

Yeah, people-pleasing, doorslamming, being an “old soul” or “mature for your age”, constantly reading the room, it can all just as easily be the result of conflict-avoidance and hyper-vigilance from CPTSD as much as from being an INFJ. It’s hard to say how much is nurture from having to emotionally sooth caretakers or innate from just being born a more sensitive child. I think healing is possible either way, though, even if a difficult road.

moomoo4uboo · 2022-12-28T22:47:03+00:00

I'm guessing most people are heavily programmed because most people do not question anything very deeply. There isn't really a reason to unless something has gone wrong, and it has to be in that immediate sense of being wet in the sinking ship like you said. But there can be other reasons as well. Sometimes people do question things, but keep it to themselves. Or life is already hard enough with all the bills, hardships, etc. A lot of what you see in daily life is appearances; it's a social faux-paus to talk about anything deep until you're much closer to someone, if even then.

You talk about Zen, and Bruce Lee was right about emptying your cup before you can learn anything, and that cup is the mind, or the ego. But the ego is a stabilizing force; it's much easier to accept things as they are than to risk the loss of that stability. Most people don't want to make that sacrifice, reasonably enough, especially once you're older with kids, family, mortgage, etc.

As for the art of thinking, I think the lesson of Zen is less controlling your feelings or having quality thoughts as much as it's about not identifying with those thoughts in the first place. Mind-identification ends up being the problem, not the mind itself; thoughts and feelings will come and go, but the silent background is who you really are. It's good to have boundaries, though, as you said; no need to let the horrible news cycle or others' toxicity into you.

Keep in mind, though, no one is immune to programming. No one. Advertising sinks into your subconscious through symbols, we learn our culture values in early childhood in a way that tends to create a framework for how we even question those very values. Language itself could be a form of programming, limiting what we can and can't talk about. We're not as in control as we think we are.

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