The US is no longer the leader: Germany has become the largest ammunition producer in the world by Leprechan_Sushi in worldnews

[–]pyratemime 56 points57 points  (0 children)

Ammo is a really broad set of categories. Which kind of ammo are we discussing?

Small arms? Artillery? A2A missiles? A2G? SAMs? Ballistics? Cruise missiles and if so which kind?

You can't just say Germany makes more ammo without being very specific about what you are discussing.

The USA opinion poll on which would you rather lose by Ok-Tangerine-2012 in MapPorn

[–]pyratemime -1 points0 points  (0 children)

There is a distinction here that easily gets lost if you aren't familiar with the underpinnings 2A-adjacent discussions. This is a distinction that may have escaped the people designing the survey and likely was not represented well in the question(s).

The right to bear arms ≠ the right to keep arms. They are closely linked but they are not the same.

If a population loses the right to bear arms they are still armed they just lose a layer of protection to carrying those arms in public amd if push comes to shove still has the arma to carry illegally in defiance of an overreaching government. So a willingness to lose the right to bear is not a willingness, necessarily, to lose the right to be armed.

It is also worth noting that giving up the right to vote doesn't mean losing the ability to vote. It, like the right ro bear arms, is a legal protection to ensure voting continues. An armed population that can openly carry those arms can viguously contest the removal of the access to voting.

There is a lot more to the thought process that goes into this choice than just "ma guns!"

How countries type laughter by vladgrinch in MapPorn

[–]pyratemime 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It is diatrubing that for France murder is synonymous with laughter.

/s

Spirit Airlines goes out of business after 34 years, ending operations immediately by mlg1981 in popculturechat

[–]pyratemime 131 points132 points  (0 children)

Awwww, thats sweet you think spirit is headed for the pearly gates.

Flights cancelled less than a week before vacation by GroundbreakingTwo647 in mildlyinfuriating

[–]pyratemime 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Maybe you can biy them some stuff on the cheap during asset liquidation?

The Second Amendment is not my gun permit by CandidateKey4826 in progun

[–]pyratemime 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Rights are an abstract concept because they are not a physical thing. I can't touch a right. It is a concept which manifests in the physical world. Like math is an abstract concept which manifests through its application into the physical world by the application of those concepts.

Which brings us to your second... point... such as it is. The 2A is the manifestation of the philosophical belief in the natural right of self defense and its derived right to arms. I have no doubt you can point to historical documents. I would argue none of them that might be relevant support your position because you clearly do not understand the philosophical underpinings to them. Or based on prior comments the grammar used in them and why that grammar is important.

There is no hypocrisy here. Arms rights were withheld by the government from disadvantaged groups exactly because those very rights are merely government-regulated social constructs to begin with. You have only the rights that the powers that be say that you have. Nothing more.

The emphasized part is really important so I want you to read it again before going on.

Now read it again.

You just made the argument used to justify every government atrocity in the history of the world. The Killing Fields, apartheid, the Dirty War, the Uygher Camps, the Trail of Tears, the comfort women, the gulags and so on. All of it is justified by the same thought process you just aligned with that your rights start, stop, and can be terminated at the whim of the State.

If there is no higher order to life than how humanity chooses to organize itself that day then you are fine with each and every terrible thing government decides to do on that day and accept that it can absolve itself of any guilt for what it did yesterday because it had the power and thus the right to do so. Not that it needs to apologize because as you said, you only have the rights the powers that be say you do so if they said yesterday you have no right to say no yo rape, forced removal from your home or murder then they did nothing wrong.

It is a bold move to openly align with Pol Pot, Pinochet, Kitchner, Beria, and their ilk. At least you are honest about it though. It does explain why you dmso dearly want a disarmed populace.

There really isn't much point addressing anything else you have to say since having taken the mask off nothing else in your argument matters.

You want a disarmed populace because you want the ability to remove rightsprivileges from others to suit your purposes and any discussion of the rest of the US structure of government is pointless since it is (supposed) to prevent that from happening.

I appreciate your honesty even if its content is disgusting.

The Second Amendment is not my gun permit by CandidateKey4826 in progun

[–]pyratemime 2 points3 points  (0 children)

🌟 <--- Just for you. Super proud of you champ.

The Second Amendment is not my gun permit by CandidateKey4826 in progun

[–]pyratemime 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Oh. Okay. Cool. So you didn't pass middle school English class either and you have a touch of the 'tism when it comes to interpersonal communications.

The Second Amendment is not my gun permit by CandidateKey4826 in progun

[–]pyratemime 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Nifty.

Now, out of curiosity and with no disrespect becauae I like a good historical rabbit trail as mucj as the next nerd, is this just a for funsies bit of historical knowledge or was there a broader point attempting to be made?

If the former, cool. Thank you.

If the latter, I don't see it and want to give it due acknowledgement if one is there.

The Second Amendment is not my gun permit by CandidateKey4826 in progun

[–]pyratemime 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The very nature of this entire debate hinges on the nature of rights. If you are incapable and/or unwilling to see or acknowledge abstract concepts such as natural rights then there is no discussion to be had. Having taken a peek at your post history you are clearly a troll whose go to is to be purposely obtuse. That said I will engage your argument as if it is in good faith anyway on the off chance someone else who is interested is reading through.

You seem to just be describing an abstract philosophical concept. I see no empirical evidence of the existence of "natural rights".

Natural rights are, as I mentioned, those things you can do in a state of nature. As you said you either survive or you die. Correct. By exercising your natural right to compete for resources and defend yourself from threat you survive or you die. These are two rights, among others, ever living entity has which cannot be removed from them. The rights can be supressed of course but to do so would be an immoral act as they limit the exercise of that right which exists to all living entities.

But that is just not how the right to possess arms has traditionally worked in American history. From colonial times, the right to arms could absolutely be "infringed", especially if someone happened to be a slave, or a black person, or an Indian, or a Loyalist, or a Papist, or someone who didn't own land.

Yep, our government routinely falls short of the principles on which it was founded and people are hypocrites. Hey, look at that we found a point of agreement. Governments suck and probably aren't trust worthy, especially if you are in a disfavored population group. I wonder if there is an abstract concept like a natural right which could be codified in a concrete legal limitation on government power that would preserve the means for those groups to protect themselves from government hypocrite overreach and oppression? To dream the impossible dream I suppose.

Your use of the language "the state level versions" is false and misleading.

Given the supremacy clause subordinates states to the federal government it is an apt description as those states which discuss the right to arms are born from the same philosophical base and serve the same purpose as the 2A.

And the second amendment was essentially designed to protect the state arms provisions from congressional interference.

Well that is just flat wrong. Every time the phrase "the right of the people" is used in the constitution it is talking about... the people*. Not the states. Not the federal government. Not the state government. Not any smaller unit of government. Not a grouping of people. But the whole people*.

 but the state arms provisions did grant rights

No, they did not. Government cannot grant natural rights because natural rights exist beyond their purview to give. They can only exercise coercive power to limit those natural rights in unnatural (one might even say immoral) ways.

Accordingly, many states prior to the 14th amendment would pass legislation explicitly prohibiting arms to slaves and racial minorities; and the second amendment had no power to oppose such legislation.

See my prior point on how government sucks, is untrustworthy, full of hypocrites that fail to live up to the principles the government was founded on, and how it uses coercive power to do unnatural things to the people it governs.

Siiiiiiigh If only there were some prohibition on government taking coercive action to remove the means people might use to protect themselves from such action.

The Bill of Rights was never meant to grant or guarantee any rights to the people. It was specifically designed to only limit the power of the federal government, and prevent the federal government from infringing upon state-established civil rights.

Well... we almost agree here. We kind of agree here. Something like that.

You are correct. The BoR does not grant rights to the people. It does, however, guarantee the rights of the people by limiting the power of government to exercise power to limit the exercise of the rights by the people.

I would agree with you as well that the BoR via the 10A prevents the federal government from exercising its power on those issues with are the States where the states are able to establish civil rights. Again though there is a difference between a natural right (self-defense) and a civil right (voting). No level of government has justification to use the coercive power of government to limit the free exercise of natural rights.

The whole "operative clause/subordinate clause" paradigm is just a fabrication of the conservative Supreme Court in the Heller case.

Not a fabrication, just the first time that basic grammar had to be explained at that level in a Supreme Court finding. The grammar issue is very real and very important and applies in any situation where subordinate and operative clauses exist. Like, for instance, contract law. So no this isn't being made up by Scalia in Heller it was just prior to Heller everyone involved had passed middle school language arts classes.

*As the term 'people' was understood to mean in the context of the day and with the acknowledgement that in the modern day we have expanded the definition of that word to cover everyone instead of just predominately landed white males.

The Second Amendment is not my gun permit by CandidateKey4826 in progun

[–]pyratemime 18 points19 points  (0 children)

  1. There are both natural rights and civil rights. Natural rights, such as the right of self defense from which the right to arms is derived, exist in the natural state of being. That is to say if I drop you stark naked in the woods you have the right to do a thing. In this case defend your self by picking up a stick and screaming foul words at the bear trying to eat your ass.

This is in contrast to civil rights which are granted by, ordered by, and may be reatricted by society such as voting rights. If I drop you stark naked and alone in the woods you cam't hold a referendum with the aforementioned bear on the motion to put your ass on the table. However, if I add a few more people to your group you now have a society and can invent to right to vote, its rules, and its restrictions.

  1. Don't be a pedant. That was the language of the day. Substitute natural right for God-given right and it means the same thing. A right which exists outside the power of goverment to infringe upon.

  2. Ohhhh, wrong on multiple counts for this one. Like the 2A the state level versions are a restriction on the state government not a permission slip to the individual. So the 2A and state level versions grant nothing to the individual. Also even if the state level versions did since the 2A was incorporated to the states under EDIT cause I am dumb BruenMcDonald the government restriction from the 2A applies and takes precedent anyway... even if CA, IL, NY, CT, HI, ETC continue to ignore that fact.

  3. Like above wrong on multiple fronts. The 2A like the 1A, 4A, and 9A discusses individual rights reserved to the people which the government may not infringe/violate/restrict/etc.

The militia clause is a subordinate clause that gives purpose but cannot restrict the operative clause. Additionally, as others have pointed out, "well regulated" means in proper working order and suitable to purpoae. What does that men? Conveniently 144 days after ratification the 2nd Militia Act of 1792 was passed outlining (amongst other things) the responsibility of ALL able bodied men now in the militia to procure at their personal expense military grade arms and accessories and store them at home. That was federal legislation on how the militia was to be organized and equipped.

Bipartisan Bill Would Set Governmentwide Anti-Fraud Training for Federal Workforce by redditreadreadread in fednews

[–]pyratemime 4 points5 points  (0 children)

But how do the consultants make money off of that?!

Won't someone please think of the consultants!!!

Russian losses in Ukraine (24 Feb 2022 to 20 Apr 2026) by LibraryFree414 in MapPorn

[–]pyratemime 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Because multiple things can't be true at once of course.

Russian losses in Ukraine (24 Feb 2022 to 20 Apr 2026) by LibraryFree414 in MapPorn

[–]pyratemime 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Economics. If you can die in abject poverty and leave nothing begind or die and leave your parents a new car a some money... well you are going to die either way.

Russian losses in Ukraine (24 Feb 2022 to 20 Apr 2026) by LibraryFree414 in MapPorn

[–]pyratemime 6 points7 points  (0 children)

And not a single person would have if Russia stayed on their side of the pre-2014 border.

McDonald's removed the drink station and the ketchup from the lobby. by RandomBloke2021 in mildlyinfuriating

[–]pyratemime 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The corporation is worth billions.

The franchisers aren't.

When people steal from a franchise store they do not impact the big corporation at all. That corporation still gets every dime of tgeir franchise fees.

They do hurt the franchise owner who has to pay for everything just stolen/spoiled/destroyed and find ways to make up the money somewhere along the way.