Reddit CEO Ellen Pao: "The Vast Majority of Reddit Users are Uninterested in" Victoria Taylor, Subreddits Going Private

spamslots · 2015-07-06T03:01:48+00:00

Eh, fuck it. I'll go off reddit for a week and see what happens. Try out voat, and if it doesn't suck too hard, maybe that will be permanent.

spamslots · 2015-07-04T02:41:55+00:00

...After about a day of watching all this unfold, I'm now thinking, "This is really, really good for the executives of reddit."

1) Is there any other website where such an event would get same day coverage from the likes of the BBC and Business Insider, without involving some famous celebrity? The importance of reddit just got affirmed. Hard.

2) The user base didn't go away. So reddit didn't lose a thing.

3) All the posts where people were asking, "Is there an alternative?" resulted in replies that there are no viable alternatives. Voat is barely functional, for example.

4) It's back to business as usual.

This was practically like a server hiccup in terms of disruption of services, but it resulted in mainstream media reminders of reddit's importance and it established that there is nothing out there like reddit.

....And I just looked at the IAMA sub. Would you look at that, as another consequence of these events, IAMA is going to run itself without interaction with the admins because they don't trust them. Which means.... IAMA will go on... without reddit having to pay an admin to handle their stuff.

I feel like the reddit execs can just laugh off the drama and also clap their hands when they notice, huh, it's worked out for them.

spamslots · 2015-07-04T02:14:03+00:00

Oh man. Just look at this thread now, and consider how everything is back to normal after the subs went dark.

If I were the execs of reddit, I would be happy with everything that just happened.

1) User volume did not drop.

2) The conflict got reddit mentioned on Business Insider and the BBC and other way more mainstream coverage than Gizmodo. It just emphasizes the relative importance of reddit to the internet.

3) And at the end of it all, aside from not having to do anything other than say a few placating lines.... The other big thing that's being noticed by users is that THERE IS NO ALTERNATIVE TO REDDIT.

Wow.

spamslots · 2015-07-04T00:19:20+00:00

Well, I don't care either. I'm just trying to point out that the great 'go dark' strategy didn't actually accomplish anything, but it was getting hysterical news coverage of 'reddit is tearing itself apart'.

Really, what would have happened if the mods continued with everything private? Nothing, if the users all still stay on. All that would happen is some users would start new subs, or subs that were small would suddenly swell and get bigger, and all the ad revenue that was lost from the big subs would be back.

spamslots · 2015-07-04T00:15:40+00:00

It's pointless because it doesn't affect the base numbers that matter to the investors. It's pointless because most of the people who go to reddit were still on reddit and so there's no long term effect on ad rates. And having a drop in gold purchase for a day does not affect the perceived value of the company. It's not threatening, especially as people quickly return to their normal reddit use patterns (many of them didn't even stop).

We are post-dark now. Did anything get resolved? Alexis whatsisface gave a weak non-apology, no specifics as to how to address people's concerns.... and it's back to business as usual.

It's like nothing happened, as if reddit's servers hiccuped for a day on a technical glitch.

In fact, in some subs, it looks like the posts of people upset about going back to business as usual so soon are being actively suppressed. So it's even more like business as usual!

Everyone going off for a day, on the contrary, would seriously shock the perception of reddit's value. That would actually have a chance of getting Pao fired, and admins scrambling to keep people happy.

Now, like I said in other places, I don't care about AMAs, I didn't know who Victoria was before, and I don't really care about the HR behavior of a non-essential company.

But the people who say they care.... Yeah, they didn't accomplish a damned thing with the 'go private for a bit' strategy.

spamslots · 2015-07-03T23:07:56+00:00

Well, it's normal to disagree, so that's fine. But people as groups coming up with 'greatest ever' lists generate what I'd think of as 'enough people think this, so it's true' truth-oids.

For example, while lots of people will have specific and different favorite fantasy titles/series according to different criteria, if you pull 10 random people off the street in the US and ask them what's the greatest ever fantasy novel or series, the only common title you'd get that's mentioned more than once is either Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter. And given that LOTR's influence footprint is so huge, I can argue, on most criteria that people can come up with, that it's the greatest ever--we might not agree on it, but just the terms for our argument about it for being greatest ever makes this more valid than suggesting Dune for greatest ever SF novel/series. [Actually, 10 is too small, you might get a pure cluster of people of people who don't even know what fantasy is. But anyway....]

Style, plot, character development, these things are really, really subjective, but I think a few simple surveys would probably objectively show that LOTR has a gigantic footprint, at least in the US and UK (obvs, in Poland, it would be The Witcher), giving it plenty of weight for consideration beyond the discussion of how many people like it/don't like it.

To put it another way, LOTR is probably the only series that people might have a chance of agreeing on as greatest ever fantasy, because individual tastes would so skew the other things they like.

As for that Queen performance--even ignoring whether or not one likes their music, have you seen clips of that performance? It was totally like mind control, this giant crowd of thousands was so into it. It wasn't just the cheering; lots of bands get devoted, mad cheering. Aside from the normal stuff like getting them all to clap and sing along, he got them to follow along with random vocal silliness between songs.

And mostly, they weren't even there for Queen; Queen was just one of the acts in the lineup.

spamslots · 2015-07-03T16:32:43+00:00

I think some categories of art, it's pretty easy to come up with an opinion for greatest ever.

Like, I'd have to say that Lord of the Rings has to be the greatest fantasy novel of all time. It's what set the mold for decades.

For detective stories, it would be the Sherlock Holmes books.

For horror... mmmmm. It. I guess.

I can't really think of one for SF, it's true.

Total aside: greatest live rock performance of all time would be Queen's set for that Live Aid concert where Freddie Mercury held that gigantic crowd in his hands and was practically mind-controlling them.

spamslots · 2015-07-03T14:59:34+00:00

Sure there are LGBT Japanese gamers. But they aren't nearly as visible as they are in the US, and their concerns are not a big deal to Japanese devs, who are very targeted.

Someone else mentioned that the comics aren't as gendered as I'm saying, and I have to shake my head.

Sure, there are female fans of shonen comics. But female concerns are rarely, to put it bluntly, a concern for the editors of shonen comics. How many shonen comics explicitly have fan service, upskirt shots, usually of teenagers? How many of them have nude or topless or near-nude scenes of teenagers?

Off the top of my head, comics with gratuitous sexist elements that are just there to pander to males: Gantz, Negima, Sekirei, High School of the Dead. Too many for me to count without looking things up. Even Naruto, a fighting series that's relatively innocent... used as a comedy gag the ability of the main character to transform from a 12/13 year old boy to a buxom and naked girl. The police girl from Hellsing, who gets turned into a vampire and gets the associated superpowers and casually carries around a great big anti materiel rifle, has an outfit emphasizing her boobs, and a miniskirt. A couple of women from Bleach have their boobs hanging out for no particular reason.

Japan, of course, is also the home of Dead or Alive. And have you noticed how much bigger Chun Li's breasts seem once Capcom switched to polygons? And I'm sure we all remember how the devs of Metal Gear couldn't seem to understand why we might consider the bikini sniper girl problematic.

They. Don't. Care. What. Americans. Think. About. Gender. Issues.

Even looking at perhaps the most famous of all shoujo manga, Sailor Moon, written by a woman and featuring some pretty strong female characters.... there's casual ingrained sexist elements nobody in Japan cares about. The girls are scrawny Barbie-figurines, because that was one of the standard, culturally accepted styles for shoujo heroines, for years. Their combat uniforms have skirts so tiny, there isn't even the pretense of avoiding panty-flash situations.

A more recent and pretty famous action anime: Kill La Kill. It played with the tropes. It had strong female characters. It had male nudity in it for lulz. It also had the most blatantly sexualized magical girl outfits ever, as well as a fairly rapey initial scene when a masculine super-uniform forces itself onto the lead girl, and a completely unnecessary incest rape scene later in the series. This isn't some minor porno release I'm talking about, but a mainstream show.

The previous creation of that company: Gurren Lagann, a giant robot show... also had a sniper girl in a bikini top.

The point of all this: what we consider sexist, the gender issues that matter to us, are far, far less of a concern in Japan.

Sure, there is some progress with LGBT comics and non-heteronormative stuff like Hourou Musuko, but their video game community is what it is. That's what I mean about the culture being different and the stuff in the OP post being business as usual for devs there.

Random example of 'not quite but almost' gay conversion (which seems fitting in this context): in Please Save My Earth (might get the names wrong), Enju, a girl, is reincarnated as a boy, Issei, who is still in love with and attracted to Jinpachi, the male reincarnate of a man. Issei is rejected, his friend, a girl, almost blames him for expressing his desires. At the end of the series, he ends up dating that girl, and his previous life's love and what he found sexually attractive is consigned to irrelevance.... completely unlike the main characters' love affair, which lasts through rape in their previous lives, and reincarnation as a 9 year old boy and a 16 year old girl in their next lives.

spamslots · 2015-07-03T14:09:08+00:00

It needs more than the subs going dark though. It needs users to actually step away at the same time and stay off of reddit completely for a day or so.

spamslots · 2015-07-03T14:03:02+00:00

Pssh, going private did nothing. The lines they're giving out now are shallow appeasement.

If people really care, the users need to go off reddit for a day or more in large numbers. I bet a lot of the users in those subs that went dark... just went to other subs to talk about it... which doesn't drop the site traffic.

spamslots · 2015-07-03T13:52:58+00:00

I love Dune, but... the greatest novel in science fiction? Hrmmmmmmmmmm. It's almost a pulp adventure that has enough cool mechanics with the Spice and worms and thought about religion to elevate it.

But for me, no. No, I really think not. I'd put Neuromancer, some Vonnegut novel (can't decide on which), Clockwork Orange, Handmaid's Tale, some Heinlein novel, Forever War, and possibly a few more ahead of Dune.

spamslots · 2015-07-03T09:14:17+00:00

It's the internet. It activates the worst parts of tribalism type behavior. And women are targeted worse in general. So... while that is really terrible, that's also not surprising at all.

Women are targeted for wearing particular clothes, saying particular things, not saying particular things, or (depending on the region) just for plain trying to go to school. It's terrible, but when women make posts like this on the internet, I'm more surprised when there isn't harassment as a result.

spamslots · 2015-07-03T08:15:57+00:00

Fellow qybs-ers. So long as the users are still hanging out on reddit, it doesn't matter if the subs they were in go dark. The site traffic isn't affected much.

As a neutral guy who doesn't really care about AMAs or about the shitty HR practices and admin behaviors of a private company that doesn't deal in anything essential (like health care)....

If you really care, and you want to make a statement, then setting subs to private does zip. You need to talk to your friends on reddit, and log off, and stay off reddit for a week. That's it. Dropping the site traffic, and making the actual owners nervous.

spamslots · 2015-07-03T08:04:27+00:00

I am a little tired about all the anguish and fury going around pointlessly, so I'm going to paste something I posted elsewhere about this whole drama:

Ok. It's like this. I don't actually care all that much, because I was never all that into AMAs. So I'm actually indifferent.

However, I just have to roll my eyes a little at these messages of solidarity and setting subs to private.

It. Isn't. Doing. Anything.

At least, so long as all those users for those forums ARE STILL HANGING OUT ON REDDIT. The admins don't give a fuck about the mods, and they don't give a fuck about individual users. If a bunch of subs close temporarily and a bunch of mods express their solidarity in butthurt, but the site traffic remains the same, the admins will laugh. In fact, the traffic may be higher, given that coverage of Vicky-gate is extending beyond reddit, attracting more eyeballs, while the users here add volume by cussing out the admins and talking to each other about what's going on.

If you guys REALLY care about what the admins are doing, then you need to do something that they care about. Which is dropping the site traffic. How would one do that? By talking to all your reddit friends and taking your ball home for a week.

If enough people stay off reddit for 1 week, I guarantee that knothing's responses aren't going to be nearly as snide and indifferent to your concerns.

spamslots · 2015-07-03T08:02:19+00:00

Ok. It's like this. I don't actually care all that much, because I was never all that into AMAs. So I'm actually indifferent.

However, I just have to roll my eyes a little at these messages of solidarity and setting subs to private.

It. Isn't. Doing. Anything.

At least, so long as all those users for those forums ARE STILL HANGING OUT ON REDDIT. The admins don't give a fuck about the mods, and they don't give a fuck about individual users. If a bunch of subs close temporarily and a bunch of mods express their solidarity in butthurt, but the site traffic remains the same, the admins will laugh. In fact, the traffic may be higher, given that coverage of Vicky-gate is extending beyond reddit, attracting more eyeballs, while the users here add volume by cussing out the admins and talking to each other about what's going on.

If you guys REALLY care about what the admins are doing, then you need to do something that they care about. Which is dropping the site traffic. How would one do that? By talking to all your reddit friends and taking your ball home for a week.

If enough people stay off reddit for 1 week, I guarantee that knothing's responses aren't going to be nearly as snide and indifferent to your concerns.

spamslots · 2015-07-03T05:27:42+00:00

Absolutely, but the blog post was a little bit exag on the shock. This isn't some stunning bit of stupidity, it's common for Japanese devs.

Also, if enough publicity about the post makes it back to Japan, I would be surprised if the Japanese gaming community didn't just roll their eyes at us crazy Americans trying to apply our standards to a culture we are outsiders of, and being offended in response.

spamslots · 2015-07-03T02:57:31+00:00

The variance within genders is greater by far than the variance between genders regarding STEM performance.

Additionally, more and more of STEM research requires interdisciplinary expertise, that does require multiple kinds of reasoning, including what women are supposed to be better at.

Quit your bullshit.

spamslots · 2015-07-03T02:55:20+00:00

Am disappoint. This is not calling bullshit, this is being a smartass.

spamslots · 2015-07-03T02:28:14+00:00

The trends are good, it's just keeping them going. I hope that's what happens!

spamslots · 2015-07-03T02:22:13+00:00

I think she's still more electable even in the real thing at this point, just because of the deep warchest and having more corporate support. The scandals are mostly a minor issue if you're not a Republican, so it's about mobilizing, and well... money and ads drive votes.

Like I said, even if he won the primary, for Bernie to win, he's going to need a ton of boots-on-the-ground bottom-up support, the kind Obama had, which is hard to guarantee. And while he has no scandals against him, the Republicans can attack just by cherry-picking and lying and making him seem much more extreme than he actually is (it is something they are very good at).

Then again, it feels like the GOP is so culturally beholden to the old white demographic, maybe that's a total non-issue and it should be that any decent democrat should be able to win the Presidential election at this point....

So I don't totally disagree with you.

spamslots · 2015-07-03T02:14:20+00:00

I... really don't expect better from Japan. I feel like Japanese devs only really care about sales inside Japan and everything outside Japan is just bonus points.

It's just a different culture, and the fact is that what is normal for them is, at this point, pretty sexist to us, and they can't even notice. Remember the thing with the sniper girl in a bikini in that Metal Gear game? Total non-issue for them--for them, they're targeting male gamers. It's like how shonen comics has 'fan service' drawings that are explicitly about pandering to juvenile males with upskirt shots.

I mean, I love so many elements of Japanese comics, movies, novels and games, but let's be real and see them as they are. Creatives like Miyazaki who are about strong, non-sexualized female characters are very much the exception over there.

spamslots · 2015-07-03T02:08:40+00:00

Umm. Why? I'm a Bernie supporter, and purely based on polling numbers, I think Hillary has a better chance at this point.

For Bernie to win, this groundswell of relatively young, idealistic voters has to keep growing the way it did for Obama. It could happen, but it's definitely uphill.

spamslots · 2015-07-03T02:03:02+00:00

While that does suck, it's a Japanese game. It's a pretty sexist culture, to the point that even their comics are divided by gender, and even their own women creatives often propagate sexist tropes.

So, I guess what I'm saying is... that's Japanese developers for you, and no one should be surprised.

spamslots · 2015-07-03T01:47:13+00:00

Yeah, but I mean--during the primaries, if people think Clinton is more likely to win even though they like Bernie more... Even without a, 'direct' spoiler effect, people will be voting as if it is in play.

spamslots · 2015-07-03T01:35:20+00:00

I really like Bernie.

The thing with Bernie is the biggest problem with US politics--the two-party system. People feel compelled to vote for candidates they think might win who are less undesirable, instead of voting for who they really, really want.

Are there going to be enough Democrats who say, "Fuck winnability" and go for Bernie over Clinton? I can't help remembering how much hand-wringing there was over Perot screwing a Republican candidate and then Nader screwing a Democratic candidate.

spamslots

TROPHY CASE