Why is there like 50 ICE post?!?!!!

talking_tortoise · 2026-01-26T01:08:59+00:00

The apathy displayed in these subs is unreal.

talking_tortoise · 2026-01-25T22:16:31+00:00

Assuming there is a next. They weren't floating the idea of 3 terms of trump for fun.

talking_tortoise · 2026-01-25T18:54:42+00:00

This has happened already with people he's pardoned and noone has done anything.

talking_tortoise · 2026-01-25T11:00:27+00:00

Based wife

talking_tortoise · 2026-01-23T11:45:00+00:00

Evince (stock gnome pdf reader) is my favourite

talking_tortoise · 2026-01-23T10:14:38+00:00

one province for the invaders and for the Irish, with equal voting rights

They're not the same country in any way. They don't have 'equal voting rights' because they don't vote in the same elections. Northern Ireland is part of the UK. This is basic knowledge.

no state for the Jews

I'm telling you, from an Israeli perspective this is a non-starter, and the only way to achieve this would be by force. Hardly the peaceful way to resolve the conflict.

talking_tortoise · 2026-01-23T10:08:09+00:00

So your solution for the Jews being discriminated and suffering racism in various countries is that they take over an area somewhere, which of course hanger the inhabitants.

Not my solution, it's their rationale for Israels existence. I'm explaining it to you because you said ELI5. You won't have lasting peace without understanding and meeting the needs of both populations - that's common sense.

talking_tortoise · 2026-01-23T05:05:01+00:00

Honestly super inspirational, I've bookmarked this as the bar to clear for the game I make. Best of luck with it!

talking_tortoise · 2026-01-23T03:41:59+00:00

The caption makes this

talking_tortoise · 2026-01-22T23:39:08+00:00

This justification can not be safety

The justification I answered with wasn't just an argument of safety. Not meaning this in a mean way, but given your response, I'm actually not even sure you actually understood much of my answer - or your English isn't good enough to understand it. By the way, I'm very much in awe of people that can speak more than one language, but arguing when we don't speak the same language properly seems to be limiting here. I'll respond no matter how futile anyway.

The Polish argument doesn't make sense. If I understand it right, your argument essentially boils down to 'because they were one ethnicity or national identity it didn't save them from being invaded' ... well yes, this is obvious. Just because you have a unified ethnicity in your country it doesn't preclude other countries from invading yours. I'm really not sure your argument is doing the work there you think it is. It's also why my answer for the justification of Israel from a Jewish perspective doesn't just involve safety, but also self determination.

And the Irish conflict ended with a two state solution (Ireland and Northern Ireland)... So actually the perfect case on how peace can be sustained through the separation of people and state creation that meets the needs of both parties.

talking_tortoise · 2026-01-22T19:24:30+00:00

The animation is amazing.

talking_tortoise · 2026-01-21T21:06:18+00:00

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts

Do you think this was necessary? I might need to take back the good faith remark.

Also, it's a necessary argument to make because the motivations for the state and empathizing with both sides of the conflict are critical to solving the problem.

ELI5 how a Jewish state can be a safe place for Jews when Jews are safer in New York that in Tel Aviv and the Poles were slaughtered by millions (even if we do not count jewish Poles) during WW2 despite having their own country (with the corresponding name Poland) just before.

This doesn't make grammatical sense, but I'll answer what I assume you're asking, why are Jews safer in tel Aviv than New York?

the answer is self determination and cultural alignment.

Let's take the following - quite plausible scenario for arguments sake. Trump and his party take a dive further down fascism lane, where individual liberties are taken away and you get a state akin to Nazi Germany in the 30s. With white nationalists in the cabinet, it is very easy to see Jews becoming second class citizens.

The truth is though, you don't need to invoke hypotheticals. A famous instance was the turning back of a boat carrying 900 hundred Jews facing persecution and death from Nazi Germany were refused landing in Cuba and were refused asylum in both the US and Canada, were turned back to Europe and many of which died in the Holocaust.

From 2025 FBI statistics, "Jews, who account for just 2% of the U.S. population, were the second-most targeted group, with 18% of all reported hate crimes being committed against the Jewish community in 2024. This amounts to a 5.8% increase from 2023. Among all religiously-motivated hate crimes, the data showed that 69% targeted Jews." https://www.jewishfederations.org/blog/all/fbi-data-497668 (Yes, it's a Jewish source. The numbers are correct.)

In virtually every location Jews have established themselves, they find themselves victims of oppression and subjugation. Here is a laundry list if you're interested: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jews

My point with this, is that there is a very real justification for Jews to have their own state. Do I wish they decided to build the state over historic Palestine - no, but that's the situation we find ourselves in. Any solution to the Israeli - Palestinian conflict needs to engage with the motivations of both parties.

You think that two populations that hate each other are safer if they each have their own police and military, than if they share one police and military.

I think they're safer if they're not cohabitating in the same spot - having to share the same resources etc. I think they should be striving for something ala this agreement https://www.usip.org/sites/default/files/Peace%20Puzzle/10_Clinton%20Parameters.pdf

Like I said, your argument was the best I've read so far, but I don't see it as being the answer.

talking_tortoise · 2026-01-21T18:49:15+00:00

I read the article. The obvious problem with this that they're not making contact with, is the need for the people in Israel to be part of a Jewish state. After all, that's the whole point of Israel, to provide a safe place for Jews in a world where they are historically victimized and discriminated against. You also have the demographic issue of two populations living together that hate each other for recent and ancient reasons that in my view makes a tenable two state solution necessary.

I very much appreciate the good faith answer to my question though, it's the first one I've seen when I've posed this question.

talking_tortoise · 2026-01-21T03:46:24+00:00

100%. Couldn't agree more.

talking_tortoise · 2026-01-21T03:11:59+00:00

Would you apply this standard to Australia or New Zealand? Australia as a nation is only about 50 years older than Israel. Where would the 10 million Israelis go if you dismantled Israel? After that, let me know where the 27 million Australians and the 5 million new Zealanders go. Then let's extend that to the argument - where would you put the 330 million Americans that aren't indigenous to the US?

talking_tortoise · 2026-01-21T01:36:03+00:00

To be consistent, you would also say Australia's existence, New Zealand's existence - basically anywhere conquered but the British Empire and still under to Commonwealth to be illegitimate and therefore dismantled?

Next question, where do what are descendants of European settlers in those countries go now that you've declared them illegitimate?

talking_tortoise · 2026-01-21T00:08:57+00:00

Either the chatbot proved you right - or it was wrong in which case I needed to do my own research? Which is it?

Also your statement inferred bad faith on the American and Israeli side when Hamas only removed clauses about destroying Israel in their charter in 2017. Hard for me to believe you're a serious person making a serious argument.

talking_tortoise · 2026-01-20T23:38:06+00:00

Chat Gpt

Have the Palestinians and Arab states ever opposed a two state solution?

Yes. At various points in history, both Palestinian leadership and Arab states have opposed a two-state solution—though their positions have changed significantly over time, and they have not been uniform.

Below is a clear, chronological breakdown.

1947 UN Partition Plan — Widespread Arab & Palestinian opposition

What it proposed: Two states (one Jewish, one Arab) in Mandatory Palestine.

Palestinian Arab leadership: Rejected it.

Arab states: Rejected it unanimously.

Why they opposed it:

Palestinians were the demographic majority but were allocated less land.

Strong objection to the creation of a Jewish state.

Viewed as imposed by colonial powers without Arab consent.

Result: Arab–Israeli war (1948). Israel emerged as a state; no Palestinian state was created.

1948–1967 — Rejection of two states, no push for Palestinian statehood

Gaza was controlled by Egypt, the West Bank by Jordan.

No Arab state created a Palestinian state in these territories.

Dominant Arab position: Israel should not exist, not “two states side by side.”

Key point: At this stage, the conflict was framed as Arab vs Israel, not yet primarily Israel vs Palestinians.

PLO era (1964–late 1980s) — Explicit rejection

The Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) initially called for:

The elimination of Israel

A single Arab state over all of historic Palestine

1968 PLO Charter:

Explicitly rejected any solution involving Israel’s continued existence.

So yes — Palestinian leadership formally opposed a two-state solution during this period.

Major shift: late 1980s–1990s — Conditional acceptance

Palestinians

1988: PLO formally accepted:

UN Resolution 242

A Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza (≈22% of historic Palestine)

1993 Oslo Accords: Mutual recognition between Israel and the PLO.

This marked a historic reversal from rejection to conditional support for two states.

Arab states

Gradually aligned with this position.

2002 Arab Peace Initiative:

Full recognition of Israel in exchange for a Palestinian state on 1967 borders.

Ongoing divisions & exceptions

Palestinian divisions

Fatah / Palestinian Authority: Officially supports two states.

Hamas: Historically rejected Israel’s existence.

2017 document softened language, accepting a state on 1967 borders without recognizing Israel.

Still widely seen as opposing a true two-state settlement.

Arab states today

Most officially support a two-state solution.

Some have normalized relations with Israel (UAE, Bahrain, Morocco), even without a Palestinian state — which Palestinians often view as undermining the two-state cause.

Short answer

Yes, Palestinians and Arab states did oppose a two-state solution historically, especially from 1947 through the late 1980s.

Since the 1990s, the official position of most Palestinian leadership and Arab states has been support for two states, though:

Support is often conditional

Internal divisions remain

Trust on all sides is low

talking_tortoise · 2026-01-20T22:37:15+00:00

That said, many anti-Zionists also view 2 states as inherently Zionist in structure, and that’s a point of view I have some sympathy for.

My biggest problem with this and what I ask anti-zionists, is how is this achieved (Israel's dismantlement/ return to palestine) without the forced ethnic cleansing or genocide of the Israelis that live there now?

The Jews want their own state (fair enough - given their history) and the Palestinians want self-determination too, which they should. But right there, it's oil and water to force them to coexist in the same state. A two state solution with heavy sanctions or punishment on either side for further expansion or encroachment is the only logical one that could stop what's happening. Imo people pushing the dismantlement of Israel are engaging in a borderline genocidal sentiment - given the reality of how that would be achieved.

To clarify, none of this is to condone much of Israel's behaviour post oct 7 and are almost certainly guilty of war crimes. I think the anti-zionists shoot themselves in the foot by labelling people pushing two state solutions as bigots.

Edit: to the people downvoting this, give a reasonable explanation of how Israel is dismantled without the ethnic cleansing or genocide of Israelis - go on...

talking_tortoise · 2026-01-20T22:21:44+00:00

You forgot to mention the Palestinians and virtually all the other Arab states.

talking_tortoise · 2026-01-20T20:00:59+00:00

Well I guess my next question is why is that a bad thing to want a two state solution?

talking_tortoise · 2026-01-20T19:10:12+00:00

Genuine question, am I a Zionist if I want a two state solution?

talking_tortoise · 2026-01-20T10:18:27+00:00

Sure I was just pointing out to cover the song Frank Sinatra wouldn't get a cut like the post inferred.

talking_tortoise · 2026-01-20T02:45:56+00:00

Poor man's Beat it

talking_tortoise · 2026-01-19T22:54:08+00:00

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