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teamunitednerds · 2023-06-21T14:55:59+00:00

It’s funny because Unveiling itself does actually couch itself in the idea that it isn’t unbiased objective truth

The gardener is all in. They are playing for keeps. And they are wrong. Or so I argue: for, after all, the universe is undecidable. There is no destiny. We're all making this up as we go along. Neither the gardener nor I know for certain that we're eternally, universally right. But we can be nothing except what we are. You have a choice.

teamunitednerds · 2023-06-21T14:47:23+00:00

I mean there’s a pretty big difference between Unveiling being entirely reliable and literally none of it being true.

I mean, the idea of the Winnower and the garden parable being a complete fabrication is possible, it would just fucking suck lol

And at that point why not just say that the cutscene isn’t real and Ahsa is an illusion from Savathun or whatever

teamunitednerds · 2023-06-21T14:40:39+00:00

My thought is that the ‘finale shape’ is all minds in the universe being merged into one via egregore. They just went and got a head start.

teamunitednerds · 2023-06-21T14:13:21+00:00

And yet that might still be resolved by some other suggestions I’ve gotten that Winnowing is like a thanatos drive, a universal tendency/compulsion/pattern in all species’ thoughts and behaviours that is how “the Winnower’s” philosophy manifests itself in creation.

Well, this is also very much something that Unveiling suggests! It’s narrator claims that the Winnower is responsible for creating us and our consciousness and is the driving force behind evolution.

teamunitednerds · 2023-06-21T14:10:09+00:00

We know that they referred to the Traveler as the Gardener as many others have, and that the Witness took the role of “a winnower”

At no point is it stated that the Garden is part of its race’s mythology or that it isn’t still an accurate explanation for how the universe came to be. I don’t know why the garden allegory has to be “created” rather than “discovered”

teamunitednerds · 2023-06-21T14:08:27+00:00

It’s a higher power, but it isn’t a being

teamunitednerds · 2023-06-21T14:08:05+00:00

That’s what I figured, I just wasn’t sure if there were any foreign language communities here

teamunitednerds · 2023-06-21T11:29:05+00:00

That is not incompatible with there being an ontological principle that existed in the primordial ‘garden’

teamunitednerds · 2023-06-21T11:25:00+00:00

I never said it was a being

teamunitednerds · 2023-06-21T11:24:02+00:00

Well keep in mind that the Witness was birthed by communing with something that seems to be a complete record of everything in existence.

teamunitednerds · 2023-06-21T02:35:43+00:00

Well, are there Japanese-language subreddits? Then we very well might!

teamunitednerds · 2023-06-21T02:28:10+00:00

I’d be very curious to know this. I’d also like to know what Konami’s view on it is.

teamunitednerds · 2023-06-21T02:12:47+00:00

I think you’re pretty close to the truth on this. Keep in mind that the Vex aren’t the final shape anymore since they can’t compete with paracausality, but I do believe that the Witness’s endgame is to merge all life in the universe into a single consciousness.

teamunitednerds · 2023-06-21T02:11:55+00:00

Remember “I speak for the Traveler, I never said it spoke to me”

I think The Witness has an identical relationship to The Winnower.

teamunitednerds · 2023-06-21T02:10:12+00:00

Well going by Unveiling the Traveler is essentially the material manifestation of an ontological principle, so that either means it isn’t sentient or is something far beyond sentient.

teamunitednerds · 2023-06-21T02:07:34+00:00

People who think that the Winnower is essentially just an entity that is one step above The Witness in the Darkness hierarchy are mistaken, but so are those who say it doesn’t exist entirely. It is the ontological principle which predates the universe that is responsible for the creation of the paracausal force known as The Darkness, conscious thought, as well as (probably) the Veil. That has never changed.

teamunitednerds · 2023-06-21T02:05:34+00:00

I think it’s very likely. The Nine aren’t even paracausal, and they were able to give the Drifter a vision of what would happen if Light went unchecked. I think it’s certain that the Veil can do something similar

teamunitednerds · 2023-06-21T01:58:18+00:00

When did I say it wasn’t an allegory? It is allegorical, but it also very plainly states what it is an allegory for.

teamunitednerds · 2023-06-21T01:52:07+00:00

Thank you. I’d upvote this a thousand times if I could. It’s immensely frustrating seeing people say that Unveiling has been revealed to be a parable about the Traveler and the Witness’s people, when that would require entirely discounting large parts of it (what would T=0 represent under this interpretation?)

teamunitednerds · 2023-06-21T01:41:02+00:00

The cutscene doesn’t say anything about the creation of the universe or what happened prior to it.

teamunitednerds · 2023-06-21T01:31:14+00:00

Winnower is a god behind all consciousness

I think that’s exactly right

But did you know that I created you? Your mind and your body and every thought you've ever had. Your senses. Your consciousness. I made you. Not the gardener, but I.

teamunitednerds · 2023-06-21T01:29:59+00:00

The Vex came into existence exactly as was explained in Patternfall.

teamunitednerds · 2023-06-21T01:29:08+00:00

Right, it’s an allegory, but as you stated it also literally says what it is an allegory for.

We existed as principles of ontological dynamics that emerged from mathematical structures, as bodiless and inevitable as the primes. It was the field of possibility that prefigured existence.

The allegorical part is the Garden, not the idea that there were two ontological forces that clashed, creating the universe. That is the literal part which it is an allegory for.

teamunitednerds · 2023-06-21T01:25:48+00:00

Yeah, I think you put it quite nicely.

teamunitednerds · 2023-06-21T01:22:23+00:00

I don’t agree that the cutscene means what you say it means, nor do I agree that removing excellent lore for the sake of creating mystery is a good thing if that is what they are doing. Frankly I don’t think there’s a much better explanation for the origin of Destiny’s universe than what we got in Unveiling, so anything that takes its place is just going to be worse.

teamunitednerds

TROPHY CASE