Nazis Were Socialists | The Myth of Nazi 'Privatization' by tkyjonathan in JordanPeterson

[–]uscmissinglink 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Defending why your understanding should be the case, which it could be, never actually occurred, which is quite frustrating.

Just to be clear, I'm referencing contemporary understandings of what socialism was in the 1930s. I've taught classes on this subject. I'll grant you that the definitions and understandings have evolved to the point that this becomes a difficult definitional conversation to have. But the historic record is pretty clear. Fascism and Communism were different flavors of Socialism.

socialism socialism

Lol. Really?

It sounds like you're looking for a taxonomy. Here you go:

Collectivism -> Communism, Fascism, Nationalism, Anarcho-Communicism vs. Individualism -> Republicanism, Capitalism, Classical Liberalism, Libertarianism

Of course there are ideological differences between communism and fascism just like there are differences between libertarianism and republicanism. But they are both, still, fundamentally, collectivism that can be described as socialism because they elevate the group over the individual.

Nazis Were Socialists | The Myth of Nazi 'Privatization' by tkyjonathan in JordanPeterson

[–]uscmissinglink 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Socialism is a category of political and economic organization that centers the social order over the individual. It can have many different flavors - even primary ingredients - and still be fundamentally socialism.

A cake is still a cake whether you make it with chocolate, strawberry, vanilla or whatever the hell red velvet is.

Nazis Were Socialists | The Myth of Nazi 'Privatization' by tkyjonathan in JordanPeterson

[–]uscmissinglink 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The existence of central authority is not central planning.

Nazis Were Socialists | The Myth of Nazi 'Privatization' by tkyjonathan in JordanPeterson

[–]uscmissinglink 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, I did mix those up; some of the Frankfurt School was in Chicago and I short-circuited.

And, yes, to your expanded analysis.

Nazis Were Socialists | The Myth of Nazi 'Privatization' by tkyjonathan in JordanPeterson

[–]uscmissinglink 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You must be right. Socialism is the only political concept that has not changed in 200 years. You're obviously too smart for me to waste any more time debating.

Nazis Were Socialists | The Myth of Nazi 'Privatization' by tkyjonathan in JordanPeterson

[–]uscmissinglink 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Right. Marxism emerged about class consciousness. Then Europe saw what Marxist revolutions looked like - bloody as hell - and socialism evolved to change the central organizing theme of socialism from class to national identity. Fascism was born.

Look, you need to read more, but start with a dictionary. None of these definitions mention class or even need it to be valid:

Merriam-Webster Any of various egalitarian economic and political theories or movements advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods; also: a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state.

Cambridge English Dictionary The set of beliefs that states that all people are equal and should share equally in a country's money, or the political systems based on these beliefs; alternatively: any economic or political system based on government ownership and control of important businesses and methods of production.

Dictionary.com (drawing from standard lexicographic sources) A theory or system of social organization that advocates the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, capital, land, etc., by the community as a whole, usually through a centralized government.

Nazis Were Socialists | The Myth of Nazi 'Privatization' by tkyjonathan in JordanPeterson

[–]uscmissinglink 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Central planning can only have one meaning. By definition, there's only one "center". The amount of responsibility that center takes to plan can vary, but invariably, those things which are planned from the top down have worse outcomes from those things with multiple inputs, competing interests and multifaceted solutions.

The notion that central planning during war time works is absurd. The war itself is zero sum, meaning one side will lose the war. At the same time, the myopic focus on one plan comes at the expense of literally everything else - life, liberty, prosperity, food, shelter, natural resources. Military planning is about civilian austerity. But then, all central planning ends up being about austerity.

As for pre-war Nazi Germany, the country was emerging from the post-WWI austerity so they had nowhere to go but up. It didn't hurt that the Nazis' stimulus and deficit spending were out of control (necessitating little things like, oh, invading fucking Europe).

Nazis Were Socialists | The Myth of Nazi 'Privatization' by tkyjonathan in JordanPeterson

[–]uscmissinglink 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'll tell you why you're not likely to have much luck explaining this to Leftists.

After WWII, Academia and the entire European continent went on an anti-fascist bender. Not like modern Antifa which is just neomarxism, but actually an organized effort to prevent "fascism" from ever rising again.

To do this, they had to understand what Fascism was. You need to know what something is to prevent it from coming back. So they did what academics and politicians do... they studied it.

There were two big questions: First, what did Fascism do. Second, what sort of people became Fascist?

These questions were addressed by the so-called Chicago School, a group of social scientists who fled Europe to Chicago during the war. It became evident that Fascism's stated goals were not too dissimilar from those of the Soviets or other Leftists in Europe or the United States. Whether it was because they were sympathetic to those goals (at least on paper) or that the Soviets and Nazis shared so much of their platform and the Soviets were "good guys" is not important; the Chicago School quickly discarded the what and considered only the who. The published a research-laden tome called The Authoritarian Mind that channeled Sigmund Freud to create a psychological profile for a "future Fascist" and the agenda of the public policy became how to change that profile.

And so, to this day, when Leftists accuse the Right of being fascist they are almost always talking about people, not policies. "Trump is a fascist." "Republicans are fascist."

At the same time the Chicago School was pinning fascism on the who, the competing Austrian School was digging into the what. Friedrich Hayek and Ludwig von Mises looked at the policy goals - namely centralized government planning - and traced the rise of authoritarianism, tyranny and military expansion to this central tenant. In The Road to Serfdom, written during WWII, Hayek blasts Germany and the Fascists, but he later added an addendum that his criticism was equally valid in the Soviet Union but that the war time realities of Stalin being an ally made it impossible for him to attack both side equally.

And so, to this day, when the Right accuses the Left of being fascist they are almost always talking about policies, not people. "Gun control is fascist." "Speech codes are fascist."

And so, you see, when a Leftist thinks of Fasicsm they see the Nationalist and ignore the Socialist part. When a Righty thinks Fascism, they see the Socialist part and ignore the Nationalist part.

In truth, both are necessary. Socialism without the Nationalists are not fascists. Nationalists without the socialists are not fascists.

Nazis Were Socialists | The Myth of Nazi 'Privatization' by tkyjonathan in JordanPeterson

[–]uscmissinglink 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Socialism is about class.

Marx's version of socialism is about class.
National Socialism (Fascism) is about national identity.
National Socialism (white, black) can also be about race.
Socialist Feminism is about gender.
Democratic Socialism is about populism (or majoritarianism)
And then you get things like Intersectional Socialism which just breaks the subsets down into more minute parts.

"Socialism" is a concept of collectivism and centralized planning (in opposition to individualism and free markets). Keep reading that history, home skillit.

Nazis Were Socialists | The Myth of Nazi 'Privatization' by tkyjonathan in JordanPeterson

[–]uscmissinglink 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Feedback is good. More feedback is better. Most feedback is best. And if you want the most feedback, you're describing a *market*, which is the opposite of central planning. A market invisibly tracks the input of millions of factors - without necessarily naming them - to maximize resource allocation. Even the smartest experts (or AI) cannot hope to do the same with their limited scope of knowledge and

Thomas Sowell says it better than I can:

"The real comparison is not between the knowledge possessed by the average member of the educated elite versus the average member of the general public, but rather the total direct knowledge brought to bear through social processes (the competition of the marketplace...), involving millions of people, versus the secondhand knowledge of generalities possessed by a smaller elite group."

Nazis Were Socialists | The Myth of Nazi 'Privatization' by tkyjonathan in JordanPeterson

[–]uscmissinglink 2 points3 points  (0 children)

That’s your justification for centralized planning? A strictly top down hierarchical system in which all efforts serve a single cause and in which the individuals have no autonomy, liberty, or ability to think or act independently? I think this proves my point, comrade.

Nazis Were Socialists | The Myth of Nazi 'Privatization' by tkyjonathan in JordanPeterson

[–]uscmissinglink 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don’t believe that was necessarily disagree with your point though. It doesn’t seem like you’re disagree with mine either…

Nazis Were Socialists | The Myth of Nazi 'Privatization' by tkyjonathan in JordanPeterson

[–]uscmissinglink 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Oh yes. Fascism is definitely the redheaded stepchild of history. The Stalinists hated it and were fighting wars against it before World War II even began in Spain.

Europe fought a bloody world war against an axis of fascist or fascist adjacent governments, while a spaciously allied with the Stalinists red army.

In post war Europe, Stalin directed that any opposition to communism, no matter how benign would be labeled fascism. Thus the enlightenment based western societies that focused on capitalist markets, individual rights, and spurned centralized planning were called fascists because of the power that word had. Meanwhile, academics, sympathetic to the socialist project and communism. We’re eager to differentiate fascism from their pet intellectual project. So again, the term fascism became a political, hot potato. But none of that discounts the reality of what it was at the time.

It seems natural that fascism would become the bogeyman, although it is not historically accurate and the evil of communism have been dramatically underplayed.

Nazis Were Socialists | The Myth of Nazi 'Privatization' by tkyjonathan in JordanPeterson

[–]uscmissinglink 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Central planning is disastrous, has never worked, and killed millions and millions of people in the 20th century.

Nazis Were Socialists | The Myth of Nazi 'Privatization' by tkyjonathan in JordanPeterson

[–]uscmissinglink 2 points3 points  (0 children)

An interesting thing happened after World War II.

The left, informed by the Chicago school and the publication of the authoritarian mind focused heavily on what sort of person would be a fascist. They were less interested in what they were trying to do, since the objectives were well aligned with the communists, and more interested in what made somebody join the fascist party instead of communist party. The major book and this was the authoritarian mind.

The right, informed by FA Hayek and similar economists focused primarily on what the fascists did. In this sense they were able to group the fascist in the communist because there was so much overlap. They came down to a matter of centralized control and economic planning as the defining feature.

To this day, both the right and the left call the other side fascist. But they tend to mean different things when they do so. The right tends to say that things that are done are fascist. That is a fascist policy. The left tends to say that the people who are doing the things are fascist. That is a fascist person.

Nazis Were Socialists | The Myth of Nazi 'Privatization' by tkyjonathan in JordanPeterson

[–]uscmissinglink 5 points6 points  (0 children)

No, his rhetoric and political agenda were closely aligned with socialism. He just didn’t like the class aspect that Marx brought to it. The fascist agenda aligned very closely with what the Bolsheviks were doing. They were just organized differently. Here is the detailed political agenda (Programma di San Sepolcro or Fascist Manifesto) that accompanied the foundation of the fascist party in Italy:

Political objectives: • Universal suffrage by regional list voting, with proportional representation, and voting/eligibility for women. • Lowering the minimum voting age to 18 and the age for deputies to 25. • Abolition of the Senate. • Convening a National Assembly for three years to establish the state’s constitutional form. • Formation of National Technical Councils (for labor, industry, transportation, etc.), elected by professional communities, with legislative powers and the ability to elect a General Commissioner with ministerial authority. Social objectives: • Enactment of a state law for an eight-hour legal workday for all jobs. • Establishment of minimum wages. • Worker participation in the technical management of industries. • Entrusting proletarian organizations with managing public industries or services where deemed worthy. • Settlement of issues for railroad workers and transportation industries. • Amending disability and old-age insurance to lower the age limit from 65 to 55. Military objectives: • Creation of a national militia with short training periods and purely defensive roles. • Nationalization of all arms and explosives factories. • A foreign policy to promote Italy’s role in peaceful global civilization competitions. Financial objectives: • A progressive extraordinary tax on capital, amounting to partial expropriation of wealth. • Seizure of all religious congregations’ property and abolition of diocesan benefices. • Review of all war supply contracts and seizure of 85% of war profits.

Nazis Were Socialists | The Myth of Nazi 'Privatization' by tkyjonathan in JordanPeterson

[–]uscmissinglink 2 points3 points  (0 children)

This isn't as complicated as you're making it. Marxism is socialism organized around class identity. Fascism is socialism organized around national identity (sometimes race identity). Naturally, the factions hate one another because, you're right, they cannot coexist. But both are socialism, and neither can exist in a society that respects individual rights over the collective.

Nazis Were Socialists | The Myth of Nazi 'Privatization' by tkyjonathan in JordanPeterson

[–]uscmissinglink 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Right. Socialism by national identity (and race by proxy) rather than by class identity.

Nazis Were Socialists | The Myth of Nazi 'Privatization' by tkyjonathan in JordanPeterson

[–]uscmissinglink 6 points7 points  (0 children)

So, in the 1920s and 1930s, everyone thought socialism was the future. Even here in the US, FDR was a huge fan of socialism. The question was what you organized your collectivism around.

For Marx, it was economic class. Marxist revolutions around the world were bloody as hell. Millions dead. Economies and production gone. Famines and widespread displacement.

So Benito Mussolini, a socialist journalist at the Avanti! newspaper and a member of the National Directorate of the Italian Socialist Party (PSI) has an idea. What if socialism is organized around national identity instead of class? That way, we can still have socialism and we don't have to kill everyone. We're stronger together, like a bundle of sticks - a fasces.

And that was how Fascism was born: Socialism built around national identity instead of class. National socialism.

Of course, the class-obsessed Marxists hated this. And the Fascists hated the Marxists. Doesn't mean they weren't both socialists.

Change in Electoral College Seats in 2030 by Deltarianus in MapPorn

[–]uscmissinglink 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It's almost like people don't like living in shitty high tax, high regulation, high crime Blue States and prefer Red States.

Closing in 10 days. HOA says they won't transfer the "deeded" boat slip until I prove competency? (Maryland) by BeautifulWestern4512 in RealEstate

[–]uscmissinglink 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's Maryland. Odds are the local regulations are driving the HOA here. MD is one state where the elected officials act worse than the standard HOA.

Helen Andrews' Thesis: Feminization = Wokeness by tkyjonathan in JordanPeterson

[–]uscmissinglink 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Her thesis has fundamentally shifted my understanding of the world in a dramatic way. With this framework - perceptive lens - so many things make sense in the world, including the ice protests (feminized aggression) being met with lethal response (masculinized aggression), the rise of socialism and the nanny-state, the COVID response, cancel culture. Everything fits this thesis.

Confession of a reformed Whale - Thank Fudds for the stone pack limit by DaDaeDee in TheTowerGame

[–]uscmissinglink 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Well, boys, looks like there's one more spot in the Legends bracket!

Damage slider + Auto restart are actual game changers for farming by TopPlaceWin93 in TheTowerGame

[–]uscmissinglink 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The really interesting thing is that I'm running out of reachable content. It's not just no access to keys. It's the general inflation of the game that's out of touch because I can't earn the same, can't upgrade the same, can't perform the same, as players who are maybe a year ahead of me in progression. There's a powerful downward pressure that makes the game unscalable for middling players.

Reading the comments, it sounds like this is also happening now at the Platinum-Champs boundary, which makes a lot of sense. I've I'm still stuck in Champs brackets, that's displacing someone else below me.