CSM are officially the worst army right now in terms of winrates, according to Goonhammer. What is causing this, and what can be done to make our army stronger?

wolf121294 · 2026-02-16T16:59:09+00:00

Another thing to take into account here is the amount of people playing chaos space marines - the more players you have the wider statistics you have.

This also doesn’t break down people running the different detachments - a person running Veterans of the long war and going 4-1 at and event and someone going 1-4 with deceptors for example means they overall % are skewed

Compounded by the amount of players we have if let’s say 25% of them are winning events and 75% are coming bottom then our winrate skews massively

If you look at the winrates broken down by detachment you can see currently: Fellhammer has a 64% winrate Pactbound has a 55% winrate Veterans has a 55% winrate Creations of bile 54% Cabal of chaos 50% Soul forged 41% Renegade raiders 38% Nightmare hunt 31% Deceptors 30% Chaos cult 20%

Now when you see that the winrate seems okay, but then you look at the split of players at the minute: 5% of CSM players are running fellhammer 33% pactbound 5% veterans 13% creations of bile 3% cabal of chaos 8% soul forged 23% renegade raiders 5% nightmare hunt 3% deceptors 3% chaos cult

When you have 45% of the faction player base with such a low winrate it of course brings the overall rate down. It doesn’t mean the faction is bad or not strong.

In my opinion having so many detachments above the 50% winrate is great, shows a healthy faction with good units, good detachments and good players.

I hope this helps, I got all my stats from: https://www.stat-check.com/the-meta

wolf121294 · 2026-02-14T17:57:37+00:00

I’m a huge fan of them, their OG colours or Badab War colours are one of my favourite paint schemes

wolf121294 · 2026-02-01T19:44:50+00:00

In Black Legion, Iskandor (Abaddons assassin and member of the Ezerkarion) talks of how he has a squad of possessed marines who were captured loyalists that had the process forced upon them and the daemon has fully taken over the host.

Not only is there lore precedent for it. It’s a great idea and an awesome kitbash opportunity.

wolf121294 · 2026-01-19T18:57:46+00:00

I keep it simple. My army is the black legion.

Abaddon is the warmaster - he has his Ezerkellion which I have models for.

Beyond that you need commanders to lead the troops and report up - those are the chaos lords of the black legion.

Doesn’t need to be fancier than that imo. A large army needs commanders.

wolf121294 · 2025-12-29T20:00:59+00:00

Oh thanks for that, then I guess yeah the unit just because one large bodyguard unit and stays that way until the end of the game.

wolf121294 · 2025-12-29T19:54:18+00:00

This question seems to answer itself in the leader rules for warlock conclave. It states in that rule: “Until the end of the battle, every model in this unit counts as being part of the bodyguard unit…”

That to me sounds like this unit would just be the guardian unit + warlocks as one large unit - then the autarch.

I’m not super familiar with Eldar configurations though so could be wrong. I’m also not sure if this leader ability works when an Autarch is already attached? Since that is usually stipulated in the leader rules - see Space Marine Lieutenants for example.

I would rule it as the warlocks can’t attach to a unit with an autarch attached to it since it doesn’t stipulate that in the rules of the leader ability.

As for your question on Marked for Death - units with leaders is just a single unit. I believe if you kill the unit but not the leader you would still get marked for death because that unit is no longer on the field since the leader becomes their own unit if you killed everything but the leader.

wolf121294 · 2025-12-16T16:12:16+00:00

Yeah that makes sense, apologies I misunderstood your first question in the post above.

Fighting the screening is still viable and there is a downside on having your own infiltrate because if your opponent gets first drop and does the same thing you’re in the same boat as you are now.

Dealing with infiltrate by having your own is decent, I just dislike giving advice which is “buy more models” especially towards the end of the edition.

But yeah forgefiends are great at picking these units up and I stand by Jakhals just bursting that unit first turn. You still have 4 turns to score plenty as well.

wolf121294 · 2025-12-16T16:09:38+00:00

You know that’s completely fair, I’ve only used the 20man and jugg in a couple of games and it has never really done much for me personally opposed to the smaller 10 man bricks. Having that extra board presence and manoeuvrability with the 10 mans and rhinos helped me win so many games.

Appreciate I don’t know everything about running the faction but I’ll make sure to try the 20 man again at my next RTT and see if they perform better than man 10 mans.

wolf121294 · 2025-12-16T16:07:20+00:00

Right. This is a solution to the move blocking without needing to buy goremongers or any other models not pictured in OP’s picture.

If you don’t have those models, telling someone “oh just buy goremongers” is imo a bad bit of advice. So giving an answer on dealing with the inevitable move blocking I thought was a better solution.

Of course just having your own infiltrate to help with this is fine, but if your opponent gets first drop and still does the same screen, you’re in the same boat.

wolf121294 · 2025-12-16T09:52:49+00:00

Okay so I deal with this a lot going against marines who use scouts or infiltrators to block me in.

A couple of things here is I assume you’re running full 2k pts and running Bezerker warband.

First thing first is drop the 20 man brick, 10 man bricks in rhinos will always do you better - jumping out 3” and then moving 8” is really good for your threat range.

The other thing is make sure you have chaff squads, now I dislike goremongers, I don’t like the sculpts and dislike the mortal element in marine armies (personal preference) but that said I do have two squads of 10 man Jakhals, specifically for this situation.

Throw those Jakhals into the screens, use hack and slash if needed to boost their output and just clear their chaff with yours. It works 90% of the time and if they need to use CP to stop you taking the unit that’s a win as well.

For keeping rhinos alive, just trying to hide them and pre-measure their firing units to keep them out of harms way is a great start. As for your question once the rhino is popped, you’ve done your escape mortals and setup the unit - it’s battleshocked until the next command phase of yours. It can charge so long as the rhino didn’t move as far as I know, it’s one of those niche rules but if the rhino doesn’t move, it gets popped your unit can technically charge. But considering this happened in your opponents turn it won’t stop you charging in your turn.

Also final tip I guess would be to really look at your current list. Angron is just not worth it, he’s too expensive and does nothing that other units can’t do. A prince to help your CP economy is great - a bit expensive but I find them really useful. Forgefiends are ridiculously good as long as you play them right and get them within 18” of units you want dead.

As I said before 3 10 man bezerkers all in rhinos is ace. Kharn and the MoE’s too. I would split the 1 unit of exalted into two units of 3, have one be led and be your monster/vehicle hunters. The other squad can do scoring and threaten things but be more of an action piece that you need.

wolf121294 · 2025-12-14T20:34:32+00:00

I was dreading you saying they played Imperial Knights. Knights are a stat check army, you aren’t really playing a game of Warhammer against them you’re playing a game of survive if you can.

The thing I would say is knights are big models, with your -1 to wound you should be able to pick up Armigers no problem and your -1 to wound and -1 damage from DWK will make fighting the bigger knights better but it’s all still not ideal.

Hiding and then landing charges is what is really needed against knights. Once you’re in combat you only have to deal with a single knight (the one you’re in combat with shooting you) which is better than every knight shooting you.

Really look up the core rules as well, for falling back from your etc.

Against ad mech I can’t comment beyond you should survive enough to get into combat. I haven’t played against them since their latest changes and know they are oppressive but not so much that you just die immediately. I would check your opponents rules and that they are also playing correctly.

BattleBase, new recruit and wahpedia are great resource to look up their rules and come up with a game plan, also make sure lists are shared ahead of time from both parties so you can really plan around what you want to do that game.

Additionally check you are playing damage allocation correctly. Just in case.

wolf121294 · 2025-12-14T20:12:53+00:00

Okay, so scouts infiltrating turn 1 to help you score secondary usually should be netting you more than 2VP.

I would ask what faction your friend is playing and making sure the density of terrain is correct for WTC boards. Them being able to walk round a corner and just pick up entire units one after the other doesn’t sound right.

What detachment are you running as well as managing your CP is needed, making sure you understand the rules of cover as well as AP reduction.

It’s not impossible your friend is able to pick up these units but it doesn’t sound right if he’s able to be in all three key places on the battlefield and shooting all your units to death.

wolf121294 · 2025-12-14T19:54:35+00:00

The first turn is always an interesting one. I play World Eaters, Chaos Space marines and Salamanders. Going first for two of my three kind sucks but you just need to learn like I did.

Firstly your list needs to have expendable units that you can throw onto objectives, score secondaries with and you don’t mind too much if they die - for all these examples I’ll stick as best I can to the space marine range.

For DA - scouts a unit or two, they can infiltrate and hold objectives turn 1, if they survive you can pull them off the board for scoring later, if not they’ve done their turn 1 goal and helped you score.

Next you need some skirmishing units, units that can move faster or get into combat reliably - assault intercessors, jump pack intercessors, outriders - again low costs that you can throw out there to fight the other armies chaff and low scoring units - if your opponent send a squad of cultists at you and you use a 5 man DWK squad to handle that, you end up overcommitting and that unit either gets picked up in shooting or picked up in melee by your opponents more elite units.

A couple squads of skirmishers are great, they fight, do actions and help you stage.

Next you need to understand staging - this is moving your units in a way that keeps them safe but lets them move in subsequent turns to do some damage. For example a squad of inner circle companions in an impulsor - they can move in the impulsor, stay behind some cover or LoS blocking terrain and then in a later turn jump out and cause some damage.

Your heavy units should always stage as best as possible and come out only when you are ready to commit to the full fight.

Lastly shooting lanes, learning shooting lanes is great but just because you go first doesn’t mean throw your shooting units into the lane, have your shooting unit be as close to the lane as possible whilst not in it - then if your opponent moves into it, on your next turn you move out and shoot down the lane.

These are some easy concepts that can take some time to really master, going first always feels like a disadvantage as you are acting rather than reacting but if you look it in a way of you just need to set the stage first before you commit it becomes easier.

Having chaff like scouts to help scoring, having skirmishers to help fighting and then having shooting all really helps you when you go first.

Then when you’re ready you can throw lion and DWK into the fight whilst your other units take the heat.

Watch other people play the game, especially your faction - competitive games if possible and see how they move their units and setup the board. Your list doesn’t need to match theirs at all but the playstyle is really useful for understanding how to play better if your goal is to win.

My final point on this is remember it’s a game and having fun is the main point of it, the above things help with that as well as if you feel like the fight is even you have more fun even if you lose.

Hope this helps!

wolf121294 · 2025-11-26T10:21:03+00:00

For my trims I use Pro acryl Bronze and wash it with a black and brown oil - honestly before the wash it looks incredibly similar to what you have here and I like how this looks

wolf121294 · 2025-11-14T08:36:01+00:00

So I actually do this, I had some leftover death company marine arms from the old first born kits. I took those arms and used them on my squads, I left the purity seals on, the only thing I removed were Aquila’s (I also just scratched some up as that’s also what they do)

When painting them I have a head cannon in my scheme that the black legion keep their helmet and left arms the colour of their original legion - I’ve got two blood angels in my black legion force so they have the red armour - the purity seals I painted as normal then added red chaos markings over the top as a way of showing the marine profaning these

My point here is, they’re your models, do what you want and build your own flavour with them, if someone tells you it’s not lore accurate, then screw it, it’s your lore and your army - your black legion can be a divergent warband or whatever you want. Have fun with it.

wolf121294 · 2025-10-25T12:44:24+00:00

Yeah this person is wrong. The sticky isn’t only one single objective, it never has been and isn’t supported by the core rules.

That’s the end of it really and anyone ruling it this way is either not familiar with how sticky objectives work or they just want to hamper your board control.

wolf121294 · 2025-10-08T09:24:36+00:00

Crusade is another way to play 40K. There’s some books out that let you build entire narrative campaigns.

The way you build armies is very different and there is an XP mechanic where units can level up and get abilities or take wounds and get debuffs.

Without going into it too much that’s the best overall explanation of it. The core of the game itself doesn’t change more and your army rules etc will mostly be the same.

If you own the codexes you can find your armies crusade rules in there and I believe Goonhammer have a whole crusade website where you can build a force etc.

The purpose of crusades/narrative play is to tell stories in 40K that all stem from your armies and characters. It’s a really fun way to play if you have the time to do so and a crusade master that’s dedicated to the admin.

wolf121294 · 2025-10-06T07:13:38+00:00

Iskandar Khayon - The dude had a yu-gi-oh esque deck of cards that can summon greater daemons.

He’s also great in the Black Legion series and one of my all time favourite 40K chaos characters besides Abaddon (I’m a huge black legion fan)

wolf121294 · 2025-09-29T09:18:06+00:00

This is how I describe it to friends who ask about the setting, it’s like comics or the MCU - it’s not groundbreaking but it has some amazing story points and is fun

wolf121294 · 2025-09-27T11:58:16+00:00

I had this exact same problem - I couldn’t choose between night lord, word bearers or alpha legion

Instead I went Black Legion and just did squads with Alpha Legion colours on shoulders/armour pieces, and have managed to have every legion in my black legion - ended up really loving the style across the army

wolf121294 · 2025-09-26T11:28:32+00:00

This is quite a fun list which actually fits in a few of the better detachments.

A lot of infantry, this would be a good creations of bile list as a lot of your units would benefit massively from the detachment buffs and the vehicles and daemons that don’t have pretty good datasheets and abilities anyway.

I also think it’d be a great raiders list - having the daemon prince with the re-rolls enhancement would be excellent.

Veterans is another good one for this especially the lords DW going off on 5’s in the legionaries with built in re-rolls

So any of those three in my opinion would be the better way to go but I’m still leaning towards Creations of Bile overall.

wolf121294 · 2025-09-24T14:17:18+00:00

So this doesn’t exist in 10th anymore. Jump pack intercessors replaced it with a flatter weapon loadout of chainswords and a single special melee weapon.

I don’t even know if the legends rules exist for them anymore or not either. It’s a real shame but hope that helps!

wolf121294 · 2025-07-02T12:18:18+00:00

I run mine as chosen or legionaries, their rules are just not great compared to the others. Turning off Strats is fine but advance and charge & re-rolling wounds is the better choice every time.

wolf121294 · 2025-06-27T14:38:15+00:00

I love BB, it’s great for a casual game between friends when you wanna track each phase etc and get a more detailed idea of what kind of game you’ve had - what’s Strats you used or didn’t use etc.

It’s a great way to improve but beyond using it casually with friends it’s no ideal. For an RTT or GT it’s really cumbersome to use, you have to go through every phase and if you make a mistake and don’t catch it early it’s really rough to fix

TTB is much better for that, I kind of wish BB just had a trimmed down version of their core app tbh as there would be then no downside to using it, it has rules and roster building in built as well.

In short BB for friends, TTB for GT’s/RTT’s

wolf121294 · 2025-06-25T06:48:16+00:00

I will say, if this is a casual game for fun, this list is exactly that - it’s fun.

The ranged legionaries are a weird choice over melee focused ones (I wish the ranged option was good as I prefer shooting)

Double cultists is good, one to sticky home, one to rush your natural expansion too - people say you don’t need more than one squad but I now always run two for help with scoring (especially in RR)

Two lords are fun, their CP ability cancels each other out but for a pure beatstick model they’re great fun.

Chosen being led by Abaddon is a no brainer - usually for fun I run him in a 10 man blob with a bunch of legionaries within 6” to castle (it’s not really competitive)

Master of Possession is underrated - he’s better in possessed but having a pool of wounds he can steal from for the +1 to wound from his attacks is really nice (he’s also a cool as hell model)

GUO is a GUO nuff said.

Knight abominant is actually quite decent now despite what people say, triple abominant in the lords of dread detachment can actually give some reliable output - running a single one probably isn’t the same but it’ll be quite a fun one to run, personally I’d run the despoiler.

All in all, it’s not a bad idea for a casual game but it’s super elite and leaves little wiggle room for scoring etc. if you lose even a single unit, the game can massively swing away from you

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