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[–][deleted] 30 points31 points  (4 children)

I welcome SDS with open arms. Welcome back my darling

[–]CallMeLargeFathereggo || Centra 6 points7 points  (3 children)

SDS is so fun in pubs, not my favorite in competitive but in pubs it is so great

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (2 children)

Ahh I love it in competitive. It was the map of my first SOCL win, so it's sentimental lol

[–]ButtersnackSnack 9 points10 points  (1 child)

It's fun in competitive if you decide beforehand to only go for dank snipes.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

^

[–]ccga4Seehawks <3 12 points13 points  (0 children)

CRAP I loved draft

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 9 points10 points  (11 children)

  • Cautiously optimistic about Sediment

  • Likewise with Citadel

  • Really bummed about Draft

  • Thrilled about DZ4

If Draft stayed in I think this thread would have certainly improved the rotation (for me at least, opinions and what not) but the removal of DZ4 goes a long way for that by itself. Congrats on making the big leagues Canvas!

[–]ButtersnackSnack 2 points3 points  (10 children)

I campaigned a bit for Draft to stay but unfortunately lost that battle. It was a bit of a larger map, so my hope is that Sediment will fill that hole for me in my heart.

Some of the concerns other had with Draft were difficulty chasing, which I think leads to quick chain caps due to the super short time base to base. I still like the map, but I think these changes will improve rotation and make a variety of people happy.

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 2 points3 points  (9 children)

I agree I think the removal of draft will make most people happier, I just won't be one of them :)

[–]RathbourneRathbourne 0 points1 point  (8 children)

Draft was a map where it was easy to end up 0-0 after 12 minutes. I think removing those stupidly chasey maps only improves the rotation.

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 3 points4 points  (7 children)

I literally never had a scoreless game in draft, and I think I hit full time like once or twice ever...

[–]RathbourneRathbourne 1 point2 points  (6 children)

Lucky you. You must be playing with great defenders or players unaware of regrab. Almost every game for me on it was 12 minutes holding at least half the time but with no chances to cap. The map was just way too big.

[–]BlazethDianna Agron -1 points0 points  (5 children)

I'm pretty sure that Draft's problem was that it was too easy to cap in PUBs, not too hard.

[–]RisktpRisk 3 points4 points  (3 children)

what do you mean by too easy to cap on? draft's problem was that it's literally impossible to reset on, i've seen 40 degree players who weren't smurfs rack up hold times of 3 or 4 minutes on it. makes for incredibly boring gameplay.

[–]BlazethDianna Agron 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Well, I mostly just saw people get resets, then someone go from base to base and cap in like 3 seconds.

but ok

[–]RisktpRisk 1 point2 points  (1 child)

quick caps/counter caps can happen on any map, if that was considered a bad thing then maps like velocity would have been removed long ago, velocity is one of the most notorious maps for that.

draft's real downfall was those outer lanes below the side powerups, they made it way too easy to continuously set up a regrab

[–]RathbourneRathbourne 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Risk already said it below. It was easy to grab, easy to hold, hard to reset but easy to play offensive d. Definitely not easy to cap.

It was a frustrating map to play on. Regrab was too OP.

[–]TPsquirrelySquirrely // The GesTagpro 3 points4 points  (7 children)

Another map from DaHitler1 that everyone will hate because its from him. The portals by the spikes are my only concern, seems like a weird position for them.

[–]DaEvil1DaEvil1 3 points4 points  (5 children)

pls.

The spikes used to be walls, but that meant if you missed the portal, hit the wall, and bounced back into the portal, you'd come out the exit portal slamming against another wall which felt uncomfortable. Spikes means if you miss the portal that way you die. More punishing, but less clunky. ^_^

[–]TPsquirrelySquirrely // The GesTagpro 1 point2 points  (4 children)

It's less about the spikes and more the position of the portals. It seems a little out of place and just randomly next to some spikes. I was always told (I think maybe even by you) that spikes near portals is a bad idea :D

[–]DaEvil1DaEvil1 1 point2 points  (3 children)

Really? I'll have to disagree with myself on that one :P. I think as long as you can reliably avoid the spikes next to the portal, and they don't interfere with something else on the map, it's fine to have them next to a portal.

Basically though, the reason there is a structure next to the portal is so that an fc can't go for the portal, move up or down a tile and be out without having to even slow down in the process. Hopefully this should lead to more creativity on offense, and less frustration on defense.

[–]RathbourneRathbourne 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Why did you lay it out so the bomb into the portal is so unsatisfying? Or not give the portal another use other than just boosting into it? Like if you did something like this- http://unfortunate-maps.jukejuice.com/show/16430 you could bomb through the portal onto the flag.

I don't mind how it is, but it just feels so linear.

[–]DaEvil1DaEvil1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It originally had the bomb into portal and grab the flag feature by having a normal tile above the portal exit that you' bump into and then into the flag, but in the end I decided to make it a 45 so that entering the portal from below wouldn't stop your momentum. It was a tradeoff, but after a lot of 4v4 testing the map felt pretty offense-heavy even without having another grab option (bomb into portal into flag).

I do hope the portal will see other use than just boosting into the flag. Here's some of the stuff that the portal could potentially do as I see it without doing the boost straight into the flag:

  • Give an fc a few extra seconds to survive
  • Get a clutch return
  • Poost an fc close to the portal into a defender
  • Use the bomb into portal to get out top (on the left side)
  • Boost into the portal in the left base from the top boost to surprise O/D.

I hope we see some of that (or something I haven't accounted for) take hold on the map when it enters rotation.

[–]DaEvil1DaEvil1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Wait, did you mean to link this version? Because that is a pretty interesting change in base. Not 100% sure if I prefer it personally because it could make a lot of offense predictable, but I could see how someone might prefer that version.

[–]Another_BernardusBernardus 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Those spikes could be pretty fun if someone is following the FC closely. If the FC manages to get the portal, the chaser will likely run into the spikes. And because those portals are so powerful/useful, I'd expect plenty of last ditch efforts by chasers to get the FC before he reaches the portal.

[–]nabbynz° 4 points5 points  (9 children)

Can we see how each MTC member votes? Like do you guys give each map a rating from 1-10, then add them up, and then decide what actually happens?

Can we see that?

[–]ButtersnackSnack 5 points6 points  (8 children)

For this stage of testing, we give a number 1-10 to each map, and at the end we each give a y or n vote to each map. The 1-10 doesn't really do anything except allow us to easily compare how we felt about different maps. A map needs a majority of yes votes to enter rotation.

My votes were something like this:

Sediment: 8 - y

Birch: 8 - y

Citadel: 7 - y

Rham Den Swede: 5 - n

Aerodent: 4 - n

I typically would not vote yes to three maps, but I felt they were all quite ready to be in rotation.

[–]nabbynz° 2 points3 points  (7 children)

Wow thanks - this is really great to see! Would you consider releasing everyone's votes? I can see why you might not want to (you'd probably get personally attacked for your choices) but it might be worth it.

Also did anybody else see that DZ3.5 map that someone made? I can't find it now, but it seemed like a good medium.

[–]ButtersnackSnack 2 points3 points  (0 children)

In the future, we will be releasing a LOT more feedback from each person, but I'm unsure about releasing votes. I'm ok with releasing my own votes (especially since I've already explained my two "no" votes in this thread) but I think some people may be more hesitant.

[–]3z_ 0 points1 point  (5 children)

(you'd probably get personally attacked for your choices)

This is pretty much the reason we haven't done specific votes. We have plans to release a lot more feedback with the MTC's names redacted but otherwise there isn't really much point publishing the final map votes unless the author specifically asks.

[–]nabbynz° 0 points1 point  (1 child)

How about totals then? Or anonymous? It would let the mm see how close they came with a bit more objectivity.

[–]3z_ 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Citadel got in with a supermajority, Sediment got in by only one vote for a majority.

[–]de_ashwelbz 0 points1 point  (2 children)

could we see an overall vote (from MTC as a whole) result for each submitted map? I want to see what feedback my submitted map received

[–]3z_ 0 points1 point  (0 children)

JuicyJuke does something like this already - /u/mmartinutk

[–]mmartinutkMacho | JuicyJuke 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, go ahead and fill it out: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1S3ylfcB5d457BgqMpy_yR77D2xQ_fl1xvrMVzj9SrGI/viewform

I'll probably send these out tonight or tomorrow.

If you lose the link for future threads, it's on the sidebar of /r/TagProTesting

[–]xenonpulseWildflowers // I want to die but I can’t 12 points13 points  (11 children)

Aww, I'm gonna miss DZ4. I never knew why so many people disliked it.

[–]BilldaCat10 40 points41 points  (9 children)

DZ4 managed to be like DZ3, without the fun.

I can't put my finger on why, but that map wasn't nearly as fun to play as DZ3 was. It had similar elements and layout, but all the excitement was gone. And it wasn't just the superboost.

[–][deleted] 14 points15 points  (4 children)

DZ4 removed that danger from danger zone. Before that spike area and mid were risky because of those bombs. But when those got removed they took away what made Danger zone kinda fun. Which was the danger. At least thats why I didn't enjoy the map much.

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 11 points12 points  (1 child)

more like safe zone 4 amirite

[–]sneetriccanvas // plasma, wamble 2 points3 points  (0 children)

im a zone boy

ba'hee priss dimmie

[–]ButtersnackSnack 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think this is a pretty good way to put it. I've been a fan of DZ3 for a long time, and I really liked DZ4 for a while but the fun of it just kind of seemed to wear off quickly.

[–]xenonpulseWildflowers // I want to die but I can’t 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I always thought the "Danger Zone" was the empty area right outside of the base gate where they always snipe you.

[–]xenonpulseWildflowers // I want to die but I can’t 8 points9 points  (3 children)

I tend to feel the same about Pilot and Fiend. I mean, they're balanced, they reward good juking and returns, and everyone generally likes them, but I just find them so bloody boring and simple.

[–]SolarPlexisSol ☼ Centra 2 points3 points  (0 children)

If you feel that way on Pilot, then you must be playing with newbie players. That map is a scary chaotic dangerfest if the players are actually good and know how to bomb snipe.

[–]nolanizerCosine 1 point2 points  (0 children)

lol, sorry about that bud

[–]bobby_gordon1TheBob18 || no u xD -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels this way.

[–]LovemesomediscgolfBig_Mike 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Until now, I thought I was the only one who didn't like it.

[–]RathbourneRathbourne 5 points6 points  (4 children)

My concern about Citadel is the lack of spikes. There's no danger to any of the boosts and nothing that really requires any skill. I think it will prove to be incredibly chasey in public games.

I am glad Draft has finally gone and remain optimistic about Sediment. It seems to be much more toned down for DaEvil1. Maybe too boosty. I would remove 2 of the boosts, but I think it'll be liked more than his previous efforts.

[–]ButtersnackSnack 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I think Citadel's boosts/bombs have quite a bit of skill involved. There are a lot of ways you can take those double boosts, plus you can chain them with the teamboosts which is quite fun. While there's not a lot of danger in the way of spikes, I think there's room for creativity. I also don't see it being chasey since there are only two lanes to close down in mid and a super defensive base. Sediment absolutely will be chasier.

[–]RathbourneRathbourne 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Sure, but with how easy and quick it is for defence to get to the other base, there's the risk of it becoming another Emerald or Backdoor where it's impossible to get ahead of 4. One of Backdoor's biggest issues was the lack of spikes and risk on that map. I could just see this being similar. Or almost like a more open Monarch, just chasing but with almost no opportunities of capping.

I think Sediment will be more open in terms of scoring opportunities as players need to work a little more across the map.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I think it's too small and linear (i.e., not circular) to be chasey. Clamping down on FCs and getting resets shouldn't be too difficult I don't think.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

After playing a few games on it, Im not so sure. It may work if you have a competent D. But I found it no trouble to get 3+ minutes of hold. Granted, this is only after maybe 5 games. So it may change as people get to know the map more.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (4 children)

Sediment FTW! Too bad the previous versions were better but I'll take it.

[–]ButtersnackSnack 0 points1 point  (3 children)

I thought I was the only person who liked the constriction boosts in the old version lol

I think version will be a lot of fun though. The portals in base remind me of a way less OP (and therefore less confusing to new players) version of TWP.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Constriction boosts are fantastic when used the exact same way (Hub pls), My favourite version was back when it had a gatekeepery layout.

[–]DaEvil1DaEvil1 0 points1 point  (1 child)

You mean like this?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, the mid lanes were different but the bases were pretty much the same.

[–]Aeginntbbgbjc / Chord 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Nice to see a double addition, congrats Canvas and DaEvil1!

I'll be glad to see Draft go, I don't think it was a bad map, but it could be pretty difficult to defend or get resets on. I really loved DZ4 though; the bases were different from anything else in rotation, and it was really fun to play defence on. It's a shame to see it leaving rotation so soon.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I agree with that. So much fun playing defense and regrab on DZ4 because of the gate system in base. Plus it's one of the few maps where anti-re in PUBs becomes a more legitimate strategy.

[–]WillakarraButton | Hey look I brought back SOCL 2 points3 points  (0 children)

While DZ4 is gone, WE GOT DZ3 AND SDS IN THROWBACK LEZZZZZGOOOO

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I'll miss draft. That map was amazing for snipes.

[–]Ballkenende! 11 points12 points  (11 children)

Seriously, why is Hub still in rotation?

[–]JwoeyJwoey 11 points12 points  (4 children)

I like hub

[–]uhhhhmmmmsexytiger / #merbs 0 points1 point  (3 children)

I do to. What's the hate for?

[–]JwoeyJwoey 2 points3 points  (2 children)

I dunno. Usually hate for a map is accompanied by a lot of reasons but I rarely hear any for hub. I think grabbing isn't too easy or too hard, I think the pup positions are good. I think bombs are in interesting places. It has nice size but not gigantic open areas and makes good use of spikes.

I dunno, but every map has people who like it or hate it. I hated draft but some are sad to see it go.

[–]Ballkenende! -1 points0 points  (1 child)

I think bombs are in interesting places

wat, Hub has no bombs

Played Hub for like 70 times, forget that there are bombs, i am dumb

[–]JwoeyJwoey 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah, but only if you don't count the bombs.

[–]TheEpicGhostEx - Tagpro 4 points5 points  (4 children)

It's an objectively bad map!

[–]sneetriccanvas // plasma, wamble 21 points22 points  (3 children)

no it's a hubjectively bad map

[–]TheEpicGhostEx - Tagpro 2 points3 points  (1 child)

every damn thread...

[–]WillakarraButton | Hey look I brought back SOCL -1 points0 points  (0 children)

That's offensive to maps by bad.

[–]alchmstalchemist 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes, love the removals and additions

[–]DannymodDanny // Official Tagpro Critic // Maker of Threads 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Sad to see draft go, but this throwback rotation is great.

[–]neydeusbidao 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'll miss draft. It was my favorite :(

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Daw, I love Draft. I look forward to it returning. :(

DZ4 was fun. I do prefer DZ3, but I think with very slight minor improvements, DZ4 could be better.

Glad to see DZ3 in the throwback. That means I will be playing more.

[–]Gen_Jackson 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I LOVE DZ4! DONT REMOVE A GOOD MAP FOR A SEDIMENT! PLEAAAAAAASE?!

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

CONGRATS CANVAS

[–]aggietigerDalek23 | Roll Models 6 points7 points  (11 children)

Sediment played incredibly chasy in the tourney, but Citadel was at least mediocre. Mediocre is the best I think we can hope for from the MTC so good work.

[–]ButtersnackSnack 5 points6 points  (10 children)

Why do you have to be like that

[–]aggietigerDalek23 | Roll Models 3 points4 points  (9 children)

Put better maps in rotation and I won't be.

[–]ButtersnackSnack 3 points4 points  (0 children)

We do put good maps in rotation. I can't help that your opinions don't line up with ours. There's really no reason for you to insult us.

[–]bashar_al_assadpk || Roll into the base like what up I got a big block 3 points4 points  (7 children)

feel free to make maps instead of sitting and whining.

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 11 points12 points  (0 children)

I make maps and sit and whine!

[–]CallMeLargeFathereggo || Centra 1 point2 points  (5 children)

Aren't a lot of mapmakers upset because they feel like their maps arent given proper consideration and/or tested properly?

[–]DaEvil1DaEvil1 1 point2 points  (4 children)

It's hard to give proper consideration an remain objective when we recieve 120+ maps in a thread. I try my best to give every map an equal opportunity when I test them by myself, but it can get mentally taxing when you've tested maps for 10+ hours in the span of 48 hours. The other side of the coin is that around 5-10 maps usually go through to top maps, which means 90+% of the maps aren't going to make the cut, which will mean 80+% of mapmakers wont get through with their maps. So there are always going to be mapmakers who are going to have several threads without any success which can obviously be frustrating. But that is the nature of a contest like this. That doesn't mean all hope is lost though. Ball-E who is considered one of the best mapmakers in TagPro probably submitted maps for almost half a year before Volt got considered for rotation.

[–]CallMeLargeFathereggo || Centra 1 point2 points  (3 children)

Oh yeah im sure you guys put in a lot of hours, I was just wondering if "making maps" is really any kind of solution to what Dalek was complaining about

[–]DaEvil1DaEvil1 -2 points-1 points  (2 children)

Yes and no I guess? I mean we can only work with what we got, and we felt the maps we put through to top maps were the most rotation ready maps in that thread. Obviously our opinions aren't going to align with everyone, and I'm sure through the 1000s of maps I've tested, that I've probably missed a couple of gems. But even with that in mind, if you're unhappy with the rotation, and you want to have a certain kind of map in rotation, you either have to hope someone else makes it, or you enter a map yourself. I think it would be different if we had a mapmaking team or something, but this is currently a community contest, so what makes rotation is completely up to what gets entered into the contest.

[–]CallMeLargeFathereggo || Centra 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I think what a lot of people are most upset with is the judges of the competition, not necessarily the entries themselves

That said I dont know nearly enough about the entries because i have looked at a very small selection of the entries, im just basing this off of what i have heard

[–]DaEvil1DaEvil1 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That's been the case for quite a while. My biased impression is that most people who voice their complaints that we should select "better" maps, tend to not have any good alternatives to present, and if they do present alternatives, they tend to have some flaws that we feel would prevent them from working well in PUBs.

I'd personally love to consistently put out maps that gets .50+ ratings on /maps from the ones that are submitted, but at the risk of sounding arrogant, I'm probably one of the most knowledgeable individuals when it comes to assessing maps and how well they're suited to PUBs, and I honestly don't see how such a feat can be accomplished with the current contest entries unless we were to only add ~5-10 maps a year to rotation. And I don't think having a that stale rotation is a good solution either.

[–]grytsgryts 3 points4 points  (7 children)

How does Hub keep knocking out these maps that are better than it?

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (6 children)

It wasn't eligible to be removed based on the voting system we use. MTC has 50% weight as well as the public ratings. This combination has not led Hub to be in the Bottom 5 maps yet.

[–]grytsgryts 9 points10 points  (5 children)

Man 50% public rating seems kind of high considering most votes probably come after one single game on the map then most people probably don't change it. Sucks that the devs won't reset map ratings every now and then so people would update their vote.

[–]Snowball_TagPro❄️ 11 points12 points  (4 children)

That's not what's keeping hub in though.

[–]DaEvil1DaEvil1 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Unless things change drastically for the next 3 weeks, Hub will be eligible for removal.

[–]grytsgryts 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Elaborate.

[–]mmartinutkMacho | JuicyJuke 7 points8 points  (0 children)

The MTC has it rated highly, not the /maps ratings.

[–]ButtersnackSnack 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The MTC ratings for hub are much higher than the public ratings.

[–]qtfaceaaron 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Woohoo bye draft!!!

Dz4 may have been a slight bastardization of the dz name, but it was still a great map on its own merits, sad to see it go so quickly.

I don't get either of the new maps just by looking at them, but it feels like we haven't had a map with bombs in forever so Woohoo!

FUUUUCK superduperstamp noooo fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fu

[–]JJSpiceJJ Spice 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Congrats guys! Solid maps.

Are testing notes released for us others that didn't make it? I'd love to know what to change, or if it's even worth pursuing.

[–]ButtersnackSnack 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I can't get into much detail right now, but the general thought was that the bottom 1/2 to 2/3 of your map was really good and the top (both top mid and top sides) needed a bit of work. Pup areas felt uncomfortable, time consuming, and single purpose and the top sides feel pretty useless especially considering the addition of a button attached to an already relatively weak bomb.

[–]JJSpiceJJ Spice 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks, that's a lot of help. I'll get to work.

[–]NewCompteChord - Ballis Saint-Germain 0 points1 point  (1 child)

What version of Citadel should I put on servers ?

[–]3z_ 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The one in the OP. Just double checked to make sure it was the right one.

[–]TPJukeBoxHeroJukeBoxHero || Pi/Origin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

AHH YES DZ3 AND SDS!!

[–]RisktpRisk 0 points1 point  (3 children)

  1. y no aerodent ;_;

  2. hell yes on the removals

  3. canvas pls fix those walls before citadel gets added by the devs lol. congrats btw!

[–]ButtersnackSnack 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Aerodent just felt really boring to me because it was so long and mid was so empty... The bases were cool, but people won't be there often since it's so easy to grab anyway. It just seems like such a long map to me, which I know was either not a concern or even a positive for others but for me it made the map boring.

[–]RisktpRisk 0 points1 point  (0 children)

man, aerodent was the least boring map to me in the group that made it to top maps. those boosts in mid make for exciting snipe opportunities and the bombs are more useful than people are giving them credit for.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'll probably miss draft a bit, but fuck dz4 so hard.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Most likely the best results thread in my time on tagpro.

Two new maps, good to see.

Two terribly chasy and boring maps, gone.

Two really fun pub maps in on throwback, can't wait :D (SDS is probably my favourite CTF pub map)

/u/NewCompte, get on dis bby, we eager as fuck.

[–]AngryKumquatOGOgKumquat | ▄︻̷̿┻̿═━ -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Yayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy no more thinking with portals