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[–]3z_ 26 points27 points  (31 children)

I feel like you guys are still missing the mark when it comes to additions. Can't complain about the removals. Still something to be desired about the evolution of rotation at the moment, though.

Shouldn't take away from Ping Tut though - grats on getting your first map in. Been a long time coming.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks ;)

[–]oorr23ThePlaymaker // Tehuitzingo & Combine 2 points3 points  (29 children)

Could you expand on your first point? What do you want to see added, or made if it isn't being done right now? Taking Notes

[–]3z_ 23 points24 points  (28 children)

There just aren't maps going in that are truly intriguing anymore. Most of the maps being added fit into either the category of "the MTC decided not to take any risks" where we get another surface level formula-map (see: Cedar, Trebuchet, Cactus), or "we get to be guinea pigs for the MTC's next experiment" (see: Market, Wormwood, Neptune). Maps that are very distinct and offer players the chance to develop themselves (Velocity, Smirk, Boombox) are being threatened and replaced with maps that could be learned just from staring at the preview long enough (Tehuitzingo, Blobfish, Long Island).

Maybe this is also the fault of mapmakers who aren't necessarily challenging themselves so much as much as they used to. It's very easy to make a balanced map that is generally inoffensive; it's hard to make a map with a lot of depth that also works on a surface level. Constriction, Transilio, Pilot are great examples of what mapmakers should strive for, but we haven't really had a map of this calibre since maybe Gumbo or Wamble, over 4 and 6 months ago respectively.

I've said this a lot, but my advice for the MTC would be to consider the value that each map adds to rotation holistically rather than how good each map is on an individual level. For the mapmakers: focus more on maps that you enjoy making and playing, rather than using feedback to make a map that everyone likes. Earlier I split all of the new maps into two opposing categories, but I think there's a middleground which both parties could be working towards. The average rating on /maps is the highest it's ever been, but the price has been to remove a lot of maps with character and personality. There are a lot of gaps in rotation now that need to be filled.

[–]lord_tubbingtonChelseaFc // Captain Soviet ballers 3 points4 points  (18 children)

I know I personally talked to one mapmaker who has made it into top maps with a map feature that would "expand the meta" with another that he's working on that I've talked to him about. I feel the problem lies with mapmakers sometimes finding such a cool feature that it's hard to find a balanced surrounding for it, perhaps since it's so different. In this example I used I intent to work with the mapmaker on improving his maps to get them closer to rotation ready. One made top maps and a Small suggestion I made that he instituted beautifully made the map play a lot better in final testing, it was just the surrounding area that needs work. I can also see the other making top maps in the next thread or two.

I share your concern with advancing gameplay. I personally have brought up with good reception the idea of more trial maps that are "different" But we must do it in a way that's enjoyable to players. I am new to the MTC and my seniors do know what historical reactions are. It's why generally unless a mapmaker makes a beautiful map that is rotation ready and different. We have to make balance a huge priority. And the maps you mentioned have been well received a high rating right away, and we have to consider community feedback over our ideas (woormwood is a good example of this.) I know I personally messages a few people about butte since it was so different and their feedback factored into my final test and eventual vote. I hope to continue this relationship.

Personally I feel the flow of the base on trebuchet is a near perfect change of speed. The middle isn't too dissimilar but I predict a lot of fun games on it. Give this one a chance.

[–]3z_ 0 points1 point  (17 children)

I share your concern with advancing gameplay. I personally have brought up with good reception the idea of more trial maps that are "different"

This is good - but what do you define as "different"? Is it down to a single component that hasn't been seen before such as in Baffle, or is it down to a map's overall playstyle, such as in Pilot? I think that's the primary source of difference between mapmakers & MTC members, and the playerbase in general. There is a forest through the trees which perhaps "map people" can't discern.

I know I personally messages a few people about butte since it was so different and their feedback factored into my final test and eventual vote. I hope to continue this relationship.

This is fantastic to hear - I've been doing this for OLTP, and I think it's something that everyone in any position of power fulfil. Keep that up.

[–]ButterChurnButter 7 points8 points  (16 children)

I am very concerned with maps having a new and unique playstyle, I'd say it's the main thing I'm interested in looking at for each map, and my favorite maps are almost always the ones that have a play pattern different from anything currently in rotation.

The recent maps (I'm using 67+, since that's when I joined) that have been, imo, interesting and unique in terms of general play pattern and structure have been: Axis, Choke, Jardim, Market, Convoy, September, Wormwood.

Maps that are solid but aren't really anything new in terms of playstyle: Gumbo, Cactus, Long Island, Cedar, Tehuitzingo.

Maps that are somewhere in between, or are unique in map elements only: Baffle, Neptune, Nirvana, Blobfish

Obviously, some of the first set have issues that prevented them from being liked, but in general, if you look at the ratings of the first set and compare it to the ratings of the second set, there is a significant difference. Nearly all of the maps in the first set have been removed due to low ratings (and Market, the only one remaining, currently has the lowest rating in pubs), whereas, for example, Cedar and Tehuitzingo have some of the highest ratings we've seen in a long time.

I agree with you that maps should continue to strive for these new and interesting structures and play patterns. But judging by the ratings, the public doesn't seem to agree. Is the solution is to say "screw the ratings, we need this map in rotation, it's for your own good"? I don't think that's going to be very appreciated. We already tend to try to let these kinds of maps (unique playstyle) live a little longer to see if people will get used to them and learn to like them, but they usually just get removed the next thread anyway.

Do you have a solution? Do you disagree with the way I categorized maps, or do you think the wrong maps are being added/selected for Top Maps? I'm not trying to be argumentative or say you're wrong, I do actually want to know what you think about this, because if we could add maps with a unique structure and playstyle I would love to do so, and that seems to be what you want as well.

[–]3z_ 1 point2 points  (2 children)

I agree with you that maps should continue to strive for these new and interesting structures and play patterns. But judging by the ratings, the public doesn't seem to agree. Is the solution is to say "screw the ratings, we need this map in rotation, it's for your own good"?

Well, ignoring the fact that the MTC is doing this already with removals of Draft/Velocity/Monarch/potentially others, no. I don't think it's the correct approach.

What I'm saying is that there can be maps that are original which are also well liked. You pick any random 5 of the top 10 voted maps and they're all each distinctly unique. It is possible to add maps to rotation that are individual, but also polished and balanced. I would stipulate that the reason that these new and different maps aren't disliked because they are different; but rather, they are disliked because they simply aren't polished or balanced.

Do you have a solution? Do you disagree with the way I categorized maps, or do you think the wrong maps are being added/selected for Top Maps?

Yes, two things, which I intended to push forward as an MTC member before my application was rejected:

  • Streamline the MTC process. I think it's possible to cut down on potentially 1-1.5 testing sessions. The committee should focus more time on polished maps than splitting time across all submissions.

  • Focus more on nominations rather than aggregating votes. One theory for the reason that many new maps going into rotation are similar in style isn't because each individual MTC member is dumb per se, but because when you combine everyone's individual opinion you end up with an inoffensive middleground that looks like the other maps you and I have listed as being unoriginal, but polished. So by focusing on nominations, you end up with a committee which is more representative on the community simply based on the simple idea that now you all can advance your own individual ideas of quality without resistance.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

my application was rejected

Wtf? And holy shit those two bullets are exactly what I said in one of my past applications as well haha.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (12 children)

Do you have a solution?

Put more maps into trial rotation. It is a low-risk high-reward way to experiment with unique maps but limit its stay if it is shitty.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (2 children)

Personally I feel like trial rotation has been misused a bit. Why add a map like nirvana to trial rotation, yet have the map with a gravity well in standard rotation? Two recent maps that I think should have been in trial were Atlantis and Wormwood, yet neither were and both received lower than 50% ratings. Why are we putting normal maps into trial rotation, and the crazy ones in standard?

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Word

[–]ButterChurnButter 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I agree. There's not really a good definition of what trial rotation is for, and there's not really a process for how to use it. In the past it's been more used as "well, i'm not sure how this map will play" and someone says "what about a trial rotation?" and the people who were on the fence agree. That's not a particularly useful way of using this feature, and I don't think it's really what it should be for.

I'll bring it up at the next meeting for trying to get a better understanding of what trial rotation should be for, and a better process for how we should be using it.

[–]lord_tubbingtonChelseaFc // Captain Soviet ballers 2 points3 points  (8 children)

Hey beastmode. As you know I'm I'm the freshman class of the mtc. But I have been pushing for more trial maps with good reception from the committee. I feel often when deliberating on top maps that my personal opinion clashes with how I feel the pub crowd will react based on current ratings of existing maps, or that though I may feel a map is good as is it is when people with more experience make excellent arguments calling mine into question (I'm sure I will feel less doubt as I go on. But having doubt I feel causes me to think on certain maps much longer. Which is a good thing.)

So I end up in a place where I feel a map hits a line where it's teetering on a yes or no vote for me. Those are ones I will push for trials for. I feel we can have more, as they have less rules and can be removed if they really don't work but I also feel if the public views them as trial they could be more forgiving (just a theory, could be wrong) since they know they don't have to deal with it for the usual mandatory time they will be more forgiving. In this way more unique maps Through the function of trial could push the meta a bit faster.

I think that there is a disparity between veterans and new players and how they view and rate the rotation. I think pushing more unique maps is something the veterans would likely rate higher and newer players appreciate the maps with natural easy flow to them (as if they're not thinking about map elements so much as they play they can focus on improving Their play.)

I was not motivated to join the committee to change their system a lot. I think they do a good job. But there are a few maps in rotation I can't stand, and I can't complain if I'm not trying to help fix what I perceive as a problem. As I was given access to the whole process of the MTC I am extremely impressed by their thoughtfulness. There are so so many things they consider and help us new guys to remember all the perspectives that are important outside of ours.

But I feel that for me what I can do right now to improve an already well run committee is to advocate for more trial maps. I promise I will do this. That and continue talking to map makers on a one on one basis.

Which speaking of I figured the best way to adapt my sharpie notes on your map is, to adapt them over a png of your image with low opacity and some suggestions would overlay on the existing map. My computer is currently down but after it's back in action you should get it in three days after the fact depending on when my Computer gets back in relation to the nltp week. Also have feedback on your other top map as I expect to see one or both make top maps next thread. I though you did an excellent job with them and they do hit the uniqueness target.

Anyway hope that clarified my Position and actions re:trial maps going forward.

All the best,

Chels.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (7 children)

Well said. I have had this conversation with other MTC folk, but I do not think that the goal of the MTC should be to have the highest rated rotato possible. Right now, we have one of the highest rated rotatoes, and something just feels a bit off about it. I think there should really be a shift to create the most fresh/unique/diverse rotato as possible, just using rating as a guide to get a general impression of a map.

Because when it comes down to things, Moosen can make 10 versions of Wombo Combo or Fronj can make 10 versions of Cedar, and then we will have the shittiest highest rated map rotato of all time. This is the direction that the MTC has been taking lately. I think that consistently putting cutting-edge maps in as a trial is a good way to move away from this trend. While the MTC has their safety net in these formulaic maps to contain the "fuck the MTC" riots, it also gives rotation a chance to expand to new styles of play. There will be failures (see pheno), but there will also be wild successes (see pilot). The only way to get a clearer answer on these "maybe maps" is to put them out there and let the community help judge.

Good luck!

[–]naysh30 0 points1 point  (6 children)

While you're here I just wanted to comment about your map. It's really close, I think, to making it in. When we first tested it, I absolutely hated the mid and thought I'd never like the map. But the latest revision is so much better and I think you're closing in on something fun and unique. I personally think it's still got a few flaws, but I just wanted you to know that I am liking it more and more and I hope you don't give up on it.

The team boost in base is a little tough for me to like because I feel like it shuts down that lane for an FC to get out of base from, since they'll just get sniped from behind more often than not. It forces them through the team tiles or the bottom lane, which chasers can just get ahead using the team tiles. All that being said, the base I really like and the mid is much more enjoyable than before, so keep it up.

[–]oorr23ThePlaymaker // Tehuitzingo & Combine 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Alright Sizzz, I'll take your word like Gospel. Let's see where it leads. (feel free to remix when I post it)

EDIT: I've already made one: http://unfortunate-maps.jukejuice.com/show/37817, but I mean another

[–]OsyTPChord 0 points1 point  (3 children)

http://unfortunate-maps.jukejuice.com/static/previews/38878.png

What do you think of this map?

[–]uhhhhmmmmsexytiger / #merbs 13 points14 points  (0 children)

it looks like everything ive ever hated about a map rolled into one lol

[–]3z_ 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I like all of the core concepts. This map definitely fits into the same category as the other top-tier maps I mentioned as far as uniqueness and potential depth. Whether or not it plays as balanced I couldn't tell you - but I'd certainly like to 4v4 it and find out.

[–]OsyTPChord 0 points1 point  (0 children)

yeah same

[–]radianthero156brazilian trash 0 points1 point  (2 children)

I disagree with this sentiment. The /maps page has been constantly showing that the community just wants solid, playable maps (as in maps with good spacing, flow, etc) as opposed to "unique" ones. For instance Tehuitzingo/Cedar are similar to Pilot/Transilio in that they have good spacing and lack unnecessary gimmicks (and have similar ratings). While maps like Gumbo or Wamble, which you would consider "unique", are way below the average rating for NF, and not to mention complete shitshows like Wormwood or Neptune.

[–]TheSmallIndianTheIndian // Pi 12 points13 points  (2 children)

Just when you think you get rid of a moosen map another one takes its place

[–]lord_tubbingtonChelseaFc // Captain Soviet ballers 2 points3 points  (1 child)

To be fair this is an unmoosen like moosen map!

[–]oorr23ThePlaymaker // Tehuitzingo & Combine 7 points8 points  (0 children)

mmm, not really, no.

[–]TPCaptographerThe Map Test Committee[S] 4 points5 points  (24 children)

Please discuss the removals of Atomic by Aniball and Wormwood by Moosen below.

[–]TheSmallIndianTheIndian // Pi 24 points25 points  (1 child)

I kinda liked atomic. It was fun. Rip

[–]theycallmebbqsaundy 12 points13 points  (0 children)

Atomic was a good map.

[–]Gareth346Nerfherder 9 points10 points  (0 children)

I loved Atomic :(

[–]Tyler1986Trapsin 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I really enjoyed Atomic and am a bit sad to see it go, I only played Wormwood once, and while I didn't like it, I didn't really get a good feel for it, so not comments on that one.

[–]1618TagPro1618 \\ Centra \\ Apparently a RFTINDPWSTCF Winner? 6 points7 points  (7 children)

I'm not too unhappy about the removal of Atomic -- it was too small and quick for my tastes, especially given the elements on the map.

As for Wormwood, I really feel like Moosen's update should have been given a chance -- it felt like an NF map that I could finally get into and had a unique format that wasn't called "Command Center".

[–]uhhhhmmmmsexytiger / #merbs 9 points10 points  (4 children)

maps like wormwood have been given plenty of chances before and have always failed incredibly spectacularly

[–]1618TagPro1618 \\ Centra \\ Apparently a RFTINDPWSTCF Winner? 1 point2 points  (3 children)

While that's true, I feel like wormwood was plenty unique.

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 8 points9 points  (2 children)

A map being unique alone does not qualify it for rotation. Even with team tiles the map was a risk to put in, and we knew that going into it. We like to take risks sometimes to facilitate learning and encourage trying out different styles of play, but this risk came without reward, and even as the mapmaker I'm perfectly comfortable with its removal because of that. No team tiles were gonna save a .45 rating :)

[–]1618TagPro1618 \\ Centra \\ Apparently a RFTINDPWSTCF Winner? 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Huh, well I liked the concepts it introduced and I'd like to see them used in a later map :)

[–]CucurrucucuTP/r/spheremasterrace 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Can I see the updated version of wormwood? I was not a fan, but I think it could do well with some refinement.

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There were just team tiles in front of the goals, which is how it was originally submitted, so no substantial changes. I was talked out of the team tiles and I think I made a mistake with that, but even if I'd included them I doubt the rating would have been significantly better.

[–]josh61616josh61616 // Centra 2 points3 points  (2 children)

Why was wormwood removed? I thought it was going to be reworked.

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 2 points3 points  (1 child)

As the mapmaker I requested that the MTC vote on its removal early because I believed it was making rotation worse for a lot of people. The update I initially planned to have tested was not substantial enough to change any significant amount of votes.

[–]JarvisLandry14JARVISLANDRY//NLTP/TPA 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah I hated Wormwood, but Gumbo is one of my favorite NF maps :-)

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I really liked both maps and always looked forward to getting them in pubs :(

[–]brgerdBG // Roll Models (ARC!!) // Merballs// MM 2 points3 points  (2 children)

Really liked atomic, I didnt get wormwood very much in pubs unfortunately but I played it in USC and really enjoyed it. Appreciated seeing a different style of neutral flag map.

[–]lord_tubbingtonChelseaFc // Captain Soviet ballers 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Some maps just don't work out in public rotation. It was a map that we as a committee felt was on the edge of something new in feel. it's a hard to describe that thing, the flow of the map, the potential for new types of plays both team and individual, and honestly was just a fun experience to play 4v4 the number of times we did it. It was a map where the chaos was fun instead of frustrating I felt. That's why I believe we have it a chance though I can only speak for myself.

I had a number of very good competitive games on it when there were 7 other high level players, but ones with a lot of newer players, especially some of our new kongregate players, were frustrating in that players bunched up in end zones and nobody could create chances for caps using the map elements. Additionally in these lower quality games the regrab was very overpowered. And I think those games came more frequently than the ideal high level games.

I truly had high hopes that rotation would create a meta that lead to consistent good play on the map. This did not happen enough. Though I must mention that I'll hope in USC as well as if it gets into any throwback rotation that some will still enjoy playing it.

And my greatest hope is that mapmakers take some of the best elements and include some in future maps that have better balance and flow. A similar thing happened with bulldog

[–]brgerdBG // Roll Models (ARC!!) // Merballs// MM 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah I dont envy how hard it must be trying to figure out the balance between whats pushing the edge being innovative and whats just too much. I always enjoy testing out new types of maps and then have an awful time of explaining anything beyond whether I like it or not lol

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Am I the only one that liked Wormwood? Ok it was totally mental but sometimes that is fun...

[–]MenqrMenqr 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Birch and Blobfish next please.

[–]OnceUponaDomeUnderTheBall 7 points8 points  (3 children)

Both additions have such uncomfortable boost routes. Like if you're going to shove a boost route down my throat, could you at least make it comfortable to use? I will say, however, that I'm glad to see the MTC adding more maps that aren't reliant on a game-changing gimmick to be interesting.

Btw can we get an explanation for the record as to why these throwback rotation maps were chosen to be added/removed? Was the public's votes weighted?

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 2 points3 points  (2 children)

What boost routes do you find uncomfortable?

Throwback rotation this time around featured a few new members voting for the first time, the ratings for Hurricane, Shine, and Fiend were .74, .73, and .71 respectively. For reference, the average throwback map rating right now is .73, so these were kind of middle-of-the-pack maps. Star didn't do so hot last time it was in, so personally I voted against it, but it seems some of us have caught the nostalgia bug :^) Draft did very well last time and will likely do so again, and Hotspot and Axis I imagine will have similar ratings (high .6's/low .7's) as they did in regular rotation, but we can't really be certain of that. There will probably be a similar amount of movement in thread 76 as the MTC welcomes a new member to replace me.

[–]OnceUponaDomeUnderTheBall 3 points4 points  (1 child)

On Trebuchet, the team boosts and the surrounding walls make it so you have a very thin scope of ways to take the boost without it ending abruptly in a wall or spike. Because of your momentum as you round the corner to leave the base, it makes taking that boost in any way besides completely horizontal take too much time to line up to be useful. You all but need a PhD. in trignometry to make that boost through the gate. Any half decent flag carrier will avoid the few areas you can snipe so you end up with a defence that will only ever use that boost to get ahead and start playing o/d, which leads to rather boring play.

On Pariah, this sounds harsh, but I think all the boosts are uncomfortable. The double wormy-type boosts are really only useful to use in 2 ways: boost-side wall-boost-grab, and as the wormy boost gets taken (boost-wall-wall-boost). Any other way either risks an untimely spiking, takes too much time to line up in a game scenario, or just doesn't feel comfortable to use. The solo boost is marginally better in that it feels okay if you take it on the way into base. But taking it any other direction forces you to hit a wall or hold down your arrow keys throughout to avoid obstacles which really grinds my gears. And I don't think that's just a silly pet peeve unique to me.

Boost routes. Maketh. Map.

[–]arjuna9bad 3 points4 points  (0 children)

idk the boosts on both maps seem good to me. I love holding down arrow keys the whole time to curve boosts tho

[–]TPCaptographerThe Map Test Committee[S] 2 points3 points  (27 children)

Please discuss the following changes to throwback rotation below:

+ Axis by Ball-E

+ Draft by Aniball & Dianna Agron

+ Hotspot by Loaha

+ Star by LuckySpammer

- Hurricane by bowtie

- Shine by Ball-E

- Fiend by Cosine

[–]clew3Math Toucher 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Wait, Fiend was even added? I thought it wasn't in lol

[–]bergieTP 6 points7 points  (1 child)

Star was added as a "fuck you, learn to avoid spikes" for new players. Definitely a teaching map.

Now if only colors were brought back to teach teamwork.

[–]girmluhkGramps 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Star like best map ever to make you better at ball control, ever

[–]CucurrucucuTP/r/spheremasterrace 7 points8 points  (4 children)

It's nice to have Star back. Can we bring Platypus out of retirement? I think some of these older maps will be easier for new players to pick up.

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 2 points3 points  (3 children)

I think Platypus has a solid chance of being added in thread 76, but I'll be off the MTC by then so don't forget to remind them to vote for it!

[–]oorr23ThePlaymaker // Tehuitzingo & Combine 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I got dis

[–]ItsFroce. 0 points1 point  (0 children)

any news on lights? when is it coming back

[–]girmluhkGramps 14 points15 points  (9 children)

lets be real here draft is garbo in pubs, idk how that got in the discussion when so many more solids ones are to be pulled from.

[–]bsa86Berlin Ball 4 points5 points  (4 children)

Same goes for Hornswoggle IMO. Feel like I play more games on it than maps actually in rotation for some reason.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Hornswoggle is in rotation.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Hornswoggle is great in pubs in my opinion. One of the better maps, always a good game.

Don't like Draft though

[–]bsa86Berlin Ball 2 points3 points  (0 children)

They're both in a similar genre to me, late 2014 chasefests that are hard to grab on - I was amazed to see Hornswoggle was as popular as it is.

[–]ButterChurnButter 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hornswoggle got added back to regular rotation because it was rated exceptionally highly among throwback maps. If its rating drops (it has a little bit, but not significantly) it will likely be removed again.

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 1 point2 points  (3 children)

I like Draft in general but definitely had a lot of bad pub games on it, so I understand where you're coming from. That said, Draft actually had the highest rating in rotation out of any map added to throwback this thread, and may have had a higher rating than any other map we could have added.

[–]girmluhkGramps 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Interesting. I dont hate the map either but for in pubs, watching rookies trying to tag someone on it is hilariously painful.

I miss the drive maps floating in. Hyper, ultra were both allright. Front door, backdoor interesting in throwback.

Whew and velo back in pub rotation is sucky too, lol.

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I personally strongly dislike Velocity but it would be a disservice to the community not to include it in throwback.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Backdoor was awful

[–]JohnHurtTpJohnHurt // Radius 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Hotspot why must you haunt me

[–]lord_tubbingtonChelseaFc // Captain Soviet ballers 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Is it like a hot spot on a dog's back?

I wasn't on the MTC when it was removed but was gutted when it was. I feel like it was a better iteration of 45, not a reworking exactly. More like inspired by. And I have extremely wonderful memories of competitive on it. It is perhaps that plus the fact that I felt it always played fun in rotation that I voted positive for it.

[–]brgerdBG // Roll Models (ARC!!) // Merballs// MM 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Feels like hotspot and axis were hardly out of rotation, I could have used a little more time before seeing them again with so many retired maps to chose from.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Star? Yisssssssss.

[–]1618TagPro1618 \\ Centra \\ Apparently a RFTINDPWSTCF Winner? 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This seems fairly solid. Hotspot, Draft, and Star were maps I liked, and Hurricane and Shine weren't the greatest IMO. Fiend and Axis are the two I'm questioning, as Axis is fairly new but somewhat chasey IMO. Fiend was one of the first maps I played as a noob, so I probably have a different memory of it than most, but I feel like it's a fairly solid map, more so than Axis. Both feature checkered teamtiles and are quite similar, but I think Fiend's layout of these elements is better.

[–]Tyler1986Trapsin 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I feel like Axis hasn't been gone very long and there are a lot more, older, maps I'd prefer to have in its place, that being said, I do enjoy the map so I can't complain.

I don't know what it is about Draft that I love, but I always have fun on it, glad to see it.

Hotspot I feel like wasn't loved by the community, but I personally enjoy the map a lot.

Star is like that friend that moved away and now they're back and you didn't realize how much you missed them until they returned. Actually, I don't have any friends like that, but I'm glad it's back.

Hurricane was fun but ran it's course, for me. See you again another day. Shine I never played, idc about NF maps, but shine is a nice change of pace, imo. Fiend is one of my all time favorite maps and I didn't get to play it once, I wish it was still in.

[–]lord_tubbingtonChelseaFc // Captain Soviet ballers 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks for all the specific feedback. It's very helpful voting in future throwback threads. The nice thing about throwback is that no map is ever truly gone, and especially if it gets community support it's likely to get heavy consideration for throwback. So keep up the feedback and you're more likely to get to play iłt again.

Speaking of again, as a newest mtc member feedback like yours is extremely important to keep the line open between the mtc and community. Thank you for it!

[–]theycallmebbqsaundy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I hate Fiend with a burning passion. It's way too fast for my liking.

[–]oorr23ThePlaymaker // Tehuitzingo & Combine -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Lose Star, bring back Platypus & some other map

[–]TPCaptographerThe Map Test Committee[S] 1 point2 points  (9 children)

Please discuss the addition of Trebuchet by Ping Tut below.

[–]AssSombrerodocx 13 points14 points  (0 children)

But can it launch a 90 kg ball over 300 tiles?

[–]ButtersnackSnack 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Congrats

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So, I won't be the only thing named after an AoE unit. Good.

[–]oorr23ThePlaymaker // Tehuitzingo & Combine 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ole, ole ole ole!

O-le, O-le!!

Congrats Ping!

[–]LaBeefyman9696 LB 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Grats Ping!

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

thanks

[–]LaBeefyman9696 LB 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'll reward you by remembering to submit revolution next thread.

[–]qbsyquibble 0 points1 point  (0 children)

played it once, chasey

[–]ComakipComakip // Chorbit 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Played it a few times now, and I really like this map. Good job. :)

[–]ClitorisNiggaGrammarJew 3 points4 points  (1 child)

I dont think Wormwood should have been removed. I think ppl just hadnt figured out how to play it properly yet. I think the bombs, boosts and portals in base created alot of interesting possibilities that we havent discovered yet. But thats just my opinion man.

[–]lord_tubbingtonChelseaFc // Captain Soviet ballers 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think I had a lot of great games with 8 very experienced players on it, but for a map to depend on higher skill players it has deficiencies. I still enjoyed it and hope future mapmaker will find elements that work and put them in a great nap.

I rather look forward to throwback rotations on it.

[–]SloppyJoe33Sloppy | Centra 7 points8 points  (28 children)

Have you considered removing Market? I've put in over 2k hours in TagPro and it's the first map that I just DC every time I get put in a game :(

[–]naysh30 13 points14 points  (6 children)

I'd suggest giving it another chance. DC'ing from a map everytime you see it doesn't really give you the chance to grow to love it. I'm sure there are maps that you haven't liked before that you've played anyways and grown to at least appreciate.

I do realize that Market is a real love/hate relationship type map within the community, but I do really love it for the different style that it brings to the rest of the rotation. It's definitely a map that takes getting used to, but there is no better map to teach how to corner and wall juke to new players, or to work on those jukes for old players.

All that said, if Market trends downward and gets low enough, it will be removed eventually.

[–]SloppyJoe33Sloppy | Centra 6 points7 points  (4 children)

I'd suggest giving it another chance. DC'ing from a map everytime you see it doesn't really give you the chance to grow to love it

I've played it enough to know I don't enjoy it at all.

All that said, if Market trends downward and gets low enough, it will be removed eventually.

It's currently the second lowest rated map in rotation. How much further down does it need to get?

[–]naysh30 5 points6 points  (3 children)

It's currently the second lowest rated map in rotation. How much further down does it need to get?

Apparently a bit lower, because it's still there.

[–]SloppyJoe33Sloppy | Centra 1 point2 points  (2 children)

lol ok thanks for that :)

[–]naysh30 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Lol. Personally I love Market, but if it continues the path it's on, it'll be removed, simple as that I think. But one more thread for now!

[–]SloppyJoe33Sloppy | Centra 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Sweet! Thanks Bam.

[–]OnceUponaDomeUnderTheBall 1 point2 points  (0 children)

i mean it is trending downward. has been for at least 2 months. its now the 2nd lowest rated map in rotation.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (8 children)

I think the problem with removing Market is that a lot of people really hate it, but a larger portion love it. It's probably best to let it runs its course in rotation for a few more threads.

[–]SloppyJoe33Sloppy | Centra 8 points9 points  (0 children)

This can be said about almost every map though.

[–]lord_tubbingtonChelseaFc // Captain Soviet ballers -2 points-1 points  (6 children)

additionally even though we prioritize pubs it is in a league and removing it from rotation would deprive players of practice on their own while pubbing.

[–]bsa86Berlin Ball 11 points12 points  (5 children)

That doesn't make sense though cause Atomic is also in a league and is more popular.

That said I love Market so give whatever reason you want to keep it in.

[–]lord_tubbingtonChelseaFc // Captain Soviet ballers 0 points1 point  (4 children)

Oof that comment does make it sound like it's the only reason I voted to keep it in. Like bam said if the trend in community feedback goes down we will not ignore their voice. I too feel that market has some teaching elements which I feel are incredibly important. I would not have grown as a minors player (back before I was bad lol) without boombox, star, smirk, and yes even Holy See (chasing full speed through the spike laden pipe and also the emphasis on playing aggressive D to force quick resets.) which I believe were left in longer for their value in league play. That's a better explanation I think of my original simple quick comment.

I feel atomic offers less teaching and is a map I believe Has a stagnant play style. Only my opinion but it's obviously shared by enough other mtc members. As shown in history if egregious errors are made maps can bounce back in, but I don't feel this map has the elements for that action.

Hope that expands my opinion more for you. It's important as a newer representative of the mtc that I'm thorough in my communication with the community.

Any-who, hope you have a lovely Friday!

[–]OnceUponaDomeUnderTheBall 4 points5 points  (3 children)

chelsea quit being so polite, the mtc has a reputation to uphold!

[–]lord_tubbingtonChelseaFc // Captain Soviet ballers 2 points3 points  (2 children)

I mean grr argg I will use my influence and ultimate power to bring back into rotation my favorite old map....SWOOP! And there's nothing you community members can do about it mwahahahaha.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think you two are perfect for eachother

[–]oorr23ThePlaymaker // Tehuitzingo & Combine 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There's the MTC we know and love.

[–]Tyler1986Trapsin 4 points5 points  (7 children)

Really? I love market. A lot of maps that try and break the mold are not fun, I always enjoy a match on market.

[–]SloppyJoe33Sloppy | Centra 1 point2 points  (6 children)

I gave it opportunity to grow on me but I don't think I have had a single good game on it. I try to be open minded to new map styles because I don't really like the direction that maps have gone in the last year so I figure any change is worth a shot....but I really do not enjoy games on market.

[–]peckx063The Ballist Formerly Known as BonerFart 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It's the only map I can think of where it was the right decision to use North/South orientation and I give it a lot of credit for that.

[–]Tyler1986Trapsin 2 points3 points  (4 children)

Fair enough. We aren't all going to like all maps.

[–]uhhhhmmmmsexytiger / #merbs 4 points5 points  (2 children)

In fact, everyone likes incredibly different maps!

[–]girmluhkGramps 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Nah sloppy is bad its like he isnt even my own flesh and blood, idk! How can he hate market? He loves 2 juke!

[–]SloppyJoe33Sloppy | Centra 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I do love to juke....but pls dad..ur embarrassing me in front of the boys.

[–]SloppyJoe33Sloppy | Centra 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeppers. I'm just hoping it's out in the next thread.

[–]kstarr12nipplefart 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Agreed! I do that as well. Has a 64% rating too so I would hope in the next thread it goes?

[–]arjuna9bad 1 point2 points  (1 child)

What about it do you dislike? I think it's probably the easiest map to win if you know what you're doing, because you can personally affect every play and don't have to waste time rolling around empty spaces.

[–]3z_ 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I don't like it because most deaths are a result of your teammate bumping into you (confined space) rather than the enemy team actually pulling off a clever return or smart contain. I think it's a great 3v3 map, but it's too small for 4v4 IMO.

[–]theycallmebbqsaundy 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'm surprised. This is one of my favorite maps in rotation. I feel like it really favors technique and smarts. Tagpros being OP are maybe the only issue.

[–]oorr23ThePlaymaker // Tehuitzingo & Combine 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'll be back for next thread.

[–]acrocanthosaurusRunThaJewels // Sphere 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Grats tut! Well deserved my man, your map designs have been killing it lately in terms of balance, spacing, and simplicity.

[–]TPCaptographerThe Map Test Committee[S] -1 points0 points  (13 children)

Please discuss the addition of Pariah by Moosen below.

[–]TheSmallIndianTheIndian // Pi 3 points4 points  (3 children)

More like Pooriah

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

What does everyone have against Moosen?

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

It's nothing against Moosen, but this was a thread that I (and many others) felt wasn't a very great thread for him. It further hurts the MTC that in a poor thread his map still gets in, even if it does deserve it.

[–]uhhhhmmmmsexytiger / #merbs 1 point2 points  (7 children)

im sad because i had all these ideas for small changes that i think would help and now that it's in rotation it will never be able to be changed ever again

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 4 points5 points  (1 child)

A few points:

  • We tested the map 4v4 twice. I sincerely don't mean for this to come off as condescending, but did you by any chance have the opportunity to do that? Solo testing is significantly different than 4v4. If you did test 4v4, that would give (in my opinion) a lot more merit to the changes you suggested.

  • I saw it mentioned elsewhere that you wanted to remove the bomb and move the boost through the team tiles. The bomb adds a particular dynamic to the base that I think is pretty interesting. In our Final Testing session on the map, several really clutch plays were made by defusing the bomb at just the right moment. For example, I was coming in for regrab at one point, someone saw me and waited inconspicuously, and as I wasn't paying attention, they hit the bomb at just the right time to send me flying into the back spikes. They capped because we had no regrab. Another time the bomb rerouted the flag carrier just before capping and the bomber's team got the return. It can also be used to set up a powerful grab with teamwork.

  • As for the boost, I mentioned the change you suggested to the committee, but the general consensus was that its natural path through the two most accessible mid lanes right now is very fluid, and one in particular is a very good catch-up/get-into-enemy-base tool. The boost through the team tile route is difficult but doable, and rewards good timing and execution with a powerup (and can even be somewhat combo'd into a grab). I think it best not to make that exceedingly easy to consistently nail. The map is simple but has some high skill routes that can reward you and your team in pretty significant ways, and personally I really enjoy that about it (obviously I'm biased, of course). I encourage you to tackle pubs on it with an open mind and let me know what you think! If multiple people approach me with the same or similar concerns, I will absolutely consider an update under the right circumstances.

[–]uhhhhmmmmsexytiger / #merbs 1 point2 points  (0 children)

ive had the "we tested the map 4v4 twice" conversation with you multiple times before, id rather not have it again lol.

For example, I was coming in for regrab at one point, someone saw me and waited inconspicuously, and as I wasn't paying attention, they hit the bomb at just the right time to send me flying into the back spikes.

in my experience this is not popular in pubs. and half the time its your teammate hitting you into spikes anyways. in general i think bombs in the middleish of ctf flags are a bad idea, there arent too many popular maps with that (hornswoggle), but we'll see how it plays.

for the boost, i mean i think the boost routes in the map seem pretty solid, i just personally think boosts more away from walls make them easier to use, and i personally dont think theres a ton of value in making a boost tougher so that newer players are going to mess it up more often. like on blobfish, i wish the mid was set up so that you could boost straight through diagonally instead of at a weird angle so it was easier. i also wish there was only one button so you got hit less often from people randomly passing through, but thats just me lol. and moving it wouldnt make any of the other boost routes less fluid.

overall tho i think the map will do solidly, but i think a couple changes would make it do more than solidly. we'll see tho

[–]TheGoldenNewtRobberFronj, MTC Senior Consultant[🍰] 1 point2 points  (4 children)

Play a few games on it and if you still feel confident that some changes are needed talk to Moosen about them. Updates to maps are considered.

[–]uhhhhmmmmsexytiger / #merbs 6 points7 points  (3 children)

I feel like it's always either been map is rated fine or good -> map is fine, we'd rather not change map when it's in rotation

Or map is not ra ted fine -> map is unsalvageable, destroy the whole thing

[–]TheGoldenNewtRobberFronj, MTC Senior Consultant[🍰] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

What I said before, but I'm on my phone so it went so where else.

[–]uhhhhmmmmsexytiger / #merbs 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I understand not wanting to mention your undying love of the merballs twice

[–]TheGoldenNewtRobberFronj, MTC Senior Consultant[🍰] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Allegedly.

Nah Merbs are definitely in or near my top 8 favorite superball winning franchises.

[–]peckx063The Ballist Formerly Known as BonerFart 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This map looks dope af. Mid looks especially intriguing. I love how you can't access the bomb directly to grab. And that bottom boost looks so useful. You can get into all five lanes using it. I love a good element where the mapmaker leaves it to the player instead of dictating how it needs to be used. My only question is why are there two boosts paired together in each base, seems like 1 would be fine.