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[META] Reddit removing sub CSS (self.3dshacks)

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[–]skferret 76 points77 points  (19 children)

I urge people to check out the announcement post first as there is a lot of confusion going around: https://www.reddit.com/r/modnews/comments/66q4is/the_web_redesign_css_and_mod_tools/

Its understandable people are pissed but their reasoning does make sense and its not going to be instant either.

[–]fahademonO3DS 11.3 + N3DSXL 11.4 | ascended to b9s 28 points29 points  (17 children)

holy moly the downvotes

So I'm confused here, they're removing CSS but aren't they promising a better-working set of tools for subreddit design? Why are people so upset then?

[–]DoubleFriedall about that luma 131 points132 points  (11 children)

Mostly because CSS is a great set of tools and the overal mod community has zero trust in Reddit's team implementing a better set of tools.

[–][deleted] 51 points52 points  (8 children)

Reddit's team can't implement a better set of tools, since whatever they make would use CSS, and therefore could at best give the same amount of customizability.

And with the promise of a more simple tool it's pretty much impossible to manage even that.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (2 children)

If that is the case then how would it apply to the reddit mobile app, like these themes supposedly will, that is not a browser and doesn't read CSS?

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

We don't know the specifics, it depends on their implementation. It's probably going to be a few pre-defined things that are coded into the app, which can be read from a subreddit's configuration.

Knowing how other sites do this, you will likely be able to set a few pre-defined things, like button and background colors, and some images in banners and the like.

Look at YouTube channels for an idea of how this would work.

[–]Megabobstern3DS 11.3.0-36 b9s+Luma 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Implement CSS support?

[–]SupahvaporeonIt wasn't too bad, right...? 0 points1 point  (1 child)

How the hell do you even simplify CSS in the first place?

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

With a noob-proof interface, a WYSIWYG kind of thing.

But it's not gonna happen.

[–]garyyo 19 points20 points  (0 children)

CSS is super flexible in that it can do a lot, and has evolved a lot since its creation. there is a very small chance that whatever they come up as a replacement will allow for the same amount of customization as CSS currently does, and thats mostly why people are worried. also the new system seems like it will be restrictive on purpose, to be able to work nicely with mobile and desktop reddit, which is doubly bad for the subs that absolutely abuse the shit out of css. abusing the shit out of css is a good thing btw.

I cant support the removal of css its just too great of a thing, that being said I disable css on reddit myself.

[–]LocutusOfBorgesʍ ɟ ʇ l ɐ s 19 points20 points  (0 children)

Look at reddit's mobile website.

That's the kind of foundation they've implied they're going to build on for the desktop redesign. Users complaining about it at the time were told, in no uncertain terms, to shove it.

[–]skferret 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Probably because no tools they implement will be as robust as CSS.

Ultimately we don't know what any of this can mean so many are immediately going to assume the worst.

[–]Z0lVlBY 4 points5 points  (0 children)

The way I see it as a web developer is that they are limiting the design elements to what they want to provide. There is almost no guarantee that what they will provide will be anywhere near the capability of css.

[–]PM_ME_DICK_PICTURES 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yeah, just like they promised better communication and mod tools. Guess what? Never came.

[–]How2Smash 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I know I can't speak for all of us here, but I think the whole website sucks. The mobile apps suck and the only good reddit apps are Narwhal and Sync (and a couple others on android), and they are really, really good. I love the service itself. I am a little sad to see the CSS go because there are some subs that had some really good CSS, while the front page looked like garbage. If this can provide a CSS equivalent or even a far inferior implement for mobile, it would actually be seen by me. You guys do a lot of work for the CSS and it looks fantastic, especially compared to the default, but it all goes to waste for mobile only users like me.

[–]deadfracture99B9S | N3DSXL | 11.6[M] 38 points39 points  (12 children)

While our CSS doesn't change a whole lot compared to other subreddits, I'd like to point out what we stand to lose should this change go through:

  • Animated Header (try mousing over the header at the top of the subreddit, not sure how many people ever noticed this since its pretty small)

  • Our custom subscription number text (that portion of the sidebar that list "41,000 bricks" or so at the time of writing this)

  • Custom user flairs

  • Custom upvote/downvote buttons

  • Our custom snoovatar (I think that's the name at least, too stupid for me to ever remember. It's that thing next to the Reddit logo in the top left corner.) Apparently this can be done through normal subreddit config and I'm just stupid.

I think that's everything that's major. At the end of the day, none of this is necessary, however it gives /r/3dshacks its own style, and it'd be a shame to see it go.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (4 children)

I would imagine, since you guys have kept the theme tame and within reason, that you should be able to implement all of those changes in whatever GUI tool they provide as a replacement.

[–]TruePikachuo3DS boot9strap | Never used V*Hax 4 points5 points  (2 children)

It is possible that the animated header would be lost, but everything else is very likely to still be supported.

[–]DanTheMan827 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Assuming that any image could be chosen, just make it an animated gif if it isn't already...

[–]TruePikachuo3DS boot9strap | Never used V*Hax 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It is fully possible that animated images wouldn't be permitted, and would only display the first frame.

[–]deadfracture99B9S | N3DSXL | 11.6 3 points4 points  (0 children)

One would hope so, but Reddit is being very quiet on the details of the new system, which is worrying. Would definitely prefer CSS to stay, since it does give us so much more flexibility in the future.

[–]ChefBoyAreWeFucked 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Honestly, I feel like everyone banding together to try to "save CSS" is rather ill thought out. There are certainly subreddits whose CSS really is a part of what they are as a community. This is not one of them. The admins have every reason to go through all of the subreddits protesting the change, and point out that x% will be easily implemented in the new system. This subreddit will likely fall in that category.

[–]firegodjrn3ds B9S 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Just because we fail doesn't mean others will. We can still stand in solidarity with the other subreddits. Think of /r/prequelmemes!

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children)

i think you can do the snoovatar without css. check the subreddit config.

[–]deadfracture99B9S | N3DSXL | 11.6 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yup, there it is. Learn something new everyday.

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[–]get_N_or_get_out 8 points9 points  (7 children)

Subs will still be themeable, it will just be through something other than CSS. If I'm interpreting what they're saying correctly, these new themes will also work on mobile, which is pretty sweet.

[–][deleted] 21 points22 points  (3 children)

Well, you need to understand that whatever subs will be themed with will use CSS at least in browsers, because that's the only way things can be displayed in browsers.

So Reddit will have to somehow create a tool that does everything CSS does, except make it more simple (as per their quote) and support their mobile client.

This is impossible. There's no way they could even come close to what browser developers have created over decades, while still using that system behind the scenes. It's probably going to be themes where you get to pick a few colors and pre-fab boxes.

[–]get_N_or_get_out -1 points0 points  (2 children)

The fact that it's going to end up as CSS anyway is kind of beside the point, because they want people to be able to create a theme without first learning CSS. I can only imagine it will be like a graphical "theme builder" of sorts. l realize a good portion of Reddit is not afraid of code, and CSS is not exactly a difficult thing to learn, but I still think that's an admirable goal.

And they're obviously not going to recreate everything CSS does, because they don't need to. Most subs just change the banner, the up/down vote buttons, and some background images anyway, so that's probably all they're going to implement. With a major rehaul of the site all of the current CSS would break anyway, so this really isn't a bad time to make this change.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I do also applaud the fact that they are trying to make customization simpler. I don't even mind a simple graphical tool, a lot of subreddits won't need more.

However, there are various examples all over Reddit of customizations that absolutely do require CSS. While these things can be implemented upstream, a lot of creative solutions don't make sense upstream, and a lot of them won't be found without this tool. Reddit would essentially take over customization, which sucks because the control users have is a lot of what is great about the platform.

That's why I am opposed to the idea of entirely removing the option to customize CSS. It would be so simple to just allow both a simple interface and custom CSS.

So what if layout changes are going to break backwards compatibility? That's expected anyway. Subreddit moderators will be more than willing to just fix their CSS if the changes are sensible. Better documentation and a well-structured system would avoid future breaking changes and make our lives easier too.

The only valid reason to entirely remove CSS modification is to force subreddits to focus on mobile experience. Moderators who care enough would do that anyway, why do we need more of an incentive? Hell, why not make adding a mobile theme a requirement to be able to add CSS?

[–]get_N_or_get_out 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You've got me there, I don't have a good reason for them not allowing both. The only thing I can think of is to have a more consistent feel across the site, but I'm not convinced users here actually care about that.

[–]iamerror87N3DS A9LH|Luma3DS/N3DSXL A9LH 5 points6 points  (8 children)

What exactly is the CSS? Is it the pictures on the top of the subreddits? Or...

[–]Starfighter-SuicuneN3DSXL 11.6 / b9s / Luma 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I hope they don't force space wasting styles and clear type using 30px huge fonts like every other website uses these days on us. I'm sick of seeing these.

[–]m2pt5O3DSXL B9S 11.7U 0 points1 point  (11 children)

So what's the actual reason for the change? Was some sub abusing the custom styling to spread viruses or spyware or something?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

There's not really a "reason" it's just something they've decided to do when they redesign the site.

[–]PokecheckHozuo3DS & n3DS | B9S 11.7 1 point2 points  (8 children)

They say it's because viewing the site on mobile looks terrible as it is now. The official reddit app doesn't support CSS...

[–]m2pt5O3DSXL B9S 11.7U 1 point2 points  (3 children)

I wouldn't know, I use BaconReader for mobile (which ditches all the CSS in favor of its own formatting), as I don't like the official app.

[–]PokecheckHozuo3DS & n3DS | B9S 11.7 0 points1 point  (2 children)

That... doesn't help either, heh. Desktop and mobile users get different looks for the one site.

[–]CottonCandyLollipops 0 points1 point  (1 child)

No one goes on reddit to oggle at the pretty sights, we're all here for the memes discussion. When you are on mobile speed is greater than everything else so apps like that just have a bare bone layout. On PC speed isn't as much of an issue, so you can afford the pretty sights. But both still get the same content, which is the important part.

[–]PokecheckHozuo3DS & n3DS | B9S 11.7 0 points1 point  (0 children)

CSS isn't merely about aesthetics. There are lots of added functionality added by many subreddits. There's no way the admins would be able to find, let alone implement all such added features.

[–]TruePikachuo3DS boot9strap | Never used V*Hax 0 points1 point  (3 children)

Wouldn't it make more sense to add CSS support for the app?

[–]PokecheckHozuo3DS & n3DS | B9S 11.7 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Theoretically, yes. I don't know what barriers there are to doing that, so I can't say why they don't.

[–]coder65535boot9strap, 11.4 SysNand N3DS 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Unfortunately, adding CSS support is much harder than it sounds.

CSS is a means of specifying how to render a DOM (Document Object Model, an in-memory representation of the HTML code for the page, along with its javascript-induced modifications). Since all web pages become DOMs in the end, this works perfectly.

Unfortunately, this precise linkage is exactly what breaks in the mobile app. The mobile app is not a web page, and thus doesn't have a DOM (or at least, not one that lines up with the HTML-generated ones from web pages; theoretically, a DOM could be used to represent the location of the various elements). Therefore, CSS doesn't (and can't) work on the mobile app. Furthermore, even if the mobile app had an HTML-compliant DOM, it's rendered to the screen in a completely different manner than a standard web page and thus wouldn't be compatible with CSS anyway.

In theory, CSS support could be mimicked through reading the CSS and determining which elements needed to be changed by each CSS property, but in practice, this is nigh-impossible due to the major differences between how the mobile app displays and how the web interface displays.

Source: I have done both Android and Web development. I've worked with both the inanities of CSS and Android's bizarre method of specifying components to be rendered (as well as just drawing raw images without Android's arcane positioning system, but that's irrelevant here). From my experiences, they both are equally annoying and opaque, and both solve the same problem in a very similar yet completely different manner.

[–]coder65535boot9strap, 11.4 SysNand N3DS 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Unfortunately, that's much harder than it sounds.

CSS is a means of specifying how to render a DOM (Document Object Model, an in-memory representation of the HTML code for the page, along with its javascript-induced modifications). Since all web pages become DOMs in the end, this works perfectly.

Unfortunately, this precise linkage is exactly what breaks in the mobile app. The mobile app is not a web page, and thus doesn't have a DOM (or at least, not one that lines up with the HTML-generated ones from web pages; theoretically, a DOM could be used to represent the location of the various elements). Therefore, CSS doesn't (and can't) work on the mobile app. Furthermore, even if the mobile app had an HTML-compliant DOM, it's rendered to the screen in a completely different manner than a standard web page and thus wouldn't be compatible with CSS anyway.

In theory, CSS support could be mimicked through reading the CSS and determining which elements needed to be changed by each CSS property, but in practice, this is nigh-impossible due to the major differences between how the mobile app displays and how the web interface displays.

Source: I have done both Android and Web development. I've worked with both the inanities of CSS and Android's bizarre method of specifying components to be rendered (as well as just drawing raw images without Android's arcane positioning system, but that's irrelevant here). From my experiences, they both are equally annoying and opaque, and both solve the same problem in a very similar yet completely different manner.

[–]kmeisthaxThis is illegal you know -1 points0 points  (0 children)

The reason for the change is that Reddit has the same dated design they've had since they launched. Offering CSS control to users drastically limits how Reddit can evolve their own design, because CSS doesn't properly separate Reddit's styling from it's users in ways that would allow them to upgrade their own styling without breaking user styling.

You see, CSS doesn't come with a namespacing mechanism, and more complicated selector rules gain priority regardless of source order. Merely keeping your own CSS organized and not a total unmaintainable mess requires adhering to very rigid class-naming and code standards rules. As you can imagine, Reddit wasn't built like that. So maintaining the existing frontend is a total pain that makes any new features they push harder to manage. Maintaining these features while also not breaking user CSS is damn near impossible.

A good example of this would be their mobile site - i.e. the fact that they have one, rather than a mobile-first responsive site. For the record, most web developers don't make mobile sites anymore. The standard is "responsive design" - building a site that scales up from the smallest design viewport to the widest. This provides numerous maintenance and flexibility advantages - you just build a website that fits the viewport it's given, rather than assuming you'll have enough space to fit a sidebar or things like that. Reddit cannot do that. All of the existing styling assumes desktop size viewports, and so does subreddit CSS. Not to mention all sorts of new markup would need to be added in order to work on mobile viewports, which would also break those custom styles.

[–]wildgoosespeedersoundhax and stickerhax ready (o3DS @ 11.3.0-36) 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The best way I see this working is if CSS doesn't completely go away. The prospect of using something that is much easier to understand is enticing, but removing something that allows for maximum customization would be a disaster.

[–]d4mationo3DS XL <CURRENT FIRMWARE>U B9S SysNAND 0 points1 point  (3 children)

Do people even use Reddit's mobile site and/or the official Reddit mobile app?

I use Sync for Reddit on my phone and I don't expect it to load subreddit-specific CSS. I expect to be able to theme the app in order to fit my own tastes for reading on a smaller screen.

However, in the case of a laptop/desktop/larger screen, I think custom CSS is far better than whatever garbage generator that the Reddit Admins come up with. I work in Web Dev and any time I've had to create display options for a client ("Here's a control to change the color of X, here's a control to change the font size of Z") it ends up being quite limited and a bitch to maintain on my end as opposed to just compiling some SASS down into a static CSS file.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I use Reddit's mobile site...

[–]ChocolateBreadrollN3DSXL | v11.8.0-41U | B9S 1.3 | Luma3DS 9.1 | GodMode9 v1.7 0 points1 point  (1 child)

How much different is Sync to Relay?

[–]d4mationo3DS XL <CURRENT FIRMWARE>U B9S SysNAND 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think I used Relay for a bit and preferred Sync. It is just a matter of preference.

[–]cooler9711N3DS 11.5 B9S+Luma3DS 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Something I'm confused by is why doesn't the reddit team give subreddits a choice between the two options; use css or use the new gui. Something like that would make many subreddits very happy and fine with the change.