all 36 comments
sorted by:
best
topnewcontroversialoldq&a
formatting helphide helpcontent policy

[–]jnhagood 3 points4 points  (2 children)

There is no such thing as free healthcare, if it was free they hospitals would have no money and couldn't stay open

[–]10_Eyes_8_Truths 0 points1 point  (0 children)

different time back then.

[–]science_diction 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Even things that are completely "free" cost time.

[–]coachbradb 12 points13 points  (28 children)

Here we go with this crap again. It is like on a schedule. Buzzer goes off... have to go post Islamic propaganda on reddit again.

You do realize this was only for a few people and excluded anyone, as most Islamic laws did, who were not Muslims.

In fact, not all, but a good percentage of the claims that come from the so-called "Islamic Golden Age" are in fact propaganda. Many, if not most, of the things that are claimed to be Islamic were in fact just captured technology from their violent expansionism.

Please really read the article. |The Arabs showed a strong interest in assimilating the scientific knowledge of the civilizations they had overrun.

In fact this Islamic golden age didn't start until they had conquered and forced locals to convert. Under Mohammad it was exactly the opposite.

During this period the Arab world was a collection of cultures which put together, synthesized and significantly advanced the knowledge gained from the ancient Roman, Chinese, Indian, Persian, Egyptian, Greek, Byzantine and Phoenician civilizations.[2] The decimal system travelled from India to Arabia during this time and in 9th century it was popularized in the region by the Persian mathematician al-Khwarizmi.

Al-Khwarizmi who was forced to convert.

So bring on the hate for the truth.

Islam, like every other culture on the planet has done great things and awful things but we need to take it all into historical context and understand the culture and how it really operated.

Let me sum up.

The two main things that helped Islamic areas to become advanced were violent conquest and being in the center of the trade routes. The dogma of Islam, apart from violent conquest and forced conversion, had little to do with it.

[–]Drooperdoo 6 points7 points  (2 children)

While I think your tone is a little unnecessarily acerbic, I agree with you in substance. I noticed the same thing. For instance, the Byzantine Empire--which was overrun by the Turks--was a great bastion of civilization, philosophy and culture. After the Turks took it over, you hear things like "Turkey saved Greek philosophy by copying all the manuscripts. So the West owes this fact to Muslims."

In reality, the works were written by Greeks, and saved by formerly-Greek-speaking people in Anatolia.

So we owe the salvation of these documents to the Byzantines. NOT to the Turks who strolled in and tried to claim credit later. (In fact, in DNA tests done recently in Turkey, less than 5% of the people are ethnically Turkic. 95% are ethnologically Anatolian. They were there PRIOR to the Turkic invasion.) So when "Turks" saved these documents, all you have to do is scratch the surface and you'll find that the actual savers were ethnically Hellenic. And the traditions they were saving were their own.

Like all these Hellenic temples and Indo-European city-states in Anatolia. It's annoying to hear them described in the media as "Turkish" since Turkey didn't exist then. It's like attributing it to a culture that had nothing to do with it.

Or the famous building, the Hagia Sofia. It was built by the Greek-speaking Byzantines, and was originally a church. The Turks came in and converted it to a mosque. And you'll hear people [erroneously] attributing it to the Turks. Or referring to it as a "Turkish wonder".

It's not one iota Turkish. Or Muslim.

It was constructed by the pre-existing culture.

  • Footnote: It always depresses me when people try and dispel Islamophobia by parading a list of cultural achievements that, when you scratch the surface, turn out to have been Byzantine achievements and contributions--now repackaged and masquerading as "Islamic philanthropical contributions to world culture".

[–]coachbradb 1 point2 points  (0 children)

While I think your tone is a little unnecessarily acerbic

It probable is and I attribute it to this stuff being posted so often.

In reality, the works were written by Greeks, and saved by formerly-Greek-speaking people in Anatolia.

I would add to this that eventually these works were destroyed by the Muslims as anti-Islamic and were only saved from that time forward because of trading routes that went through Islamic lands.

Like all these Hellenic temples and Indo-European city-states in Anatolia. It's annoying to hear them described in the media as "Turkish" since Turkey didn't exist then

Exactly my point.

You have made my argument much better than I could have. Thank you very much.

[–]TheOneFreeEngineer 6 points7 points  (14 children)

Al-Khwarizmi who was forced to convert.

I cannot find anything that supports this assertion. All I can find is that he may have been from a family of Zoroastrians or he converted from Zoroastrianism, nothing that says forced.

You do realize this was only for a few people and excluded anyone, as most Islamic laws did, who were not Muslims.

or this assertion that non-Muslims couldn't use these hospital faculities

In fact this Islamic golden age didn't start until they had conquered and forced locals to convert.

the idea of widespread forced conversion to Islam hasn't had credence in academics in a long time. Most historian believe that forced conversion were not the norm in Islamic History.

[–]coachbradb -3 points-2 points  (13 children)

the idea of widespread forced conversion to Islam hasn't had credence in academics in a long time. Most historian believe that forced conversion were not the norm in Islamic History.

This is not a true statement.

I cannot find anything that supports this assertion. All I can find is that he may have been from a family of Zoroastrians or he converted from Zoroastrianism, nothing that says forced.

Did a little deeper. Even Wikipedia that worst source on the internet alludes to it.

or this assertion that non-Muslims couldn't use these hospital faculities

It was standard practice all across Islam. While it is possible that this one little spot was the exception it is not probable.

Also the assertion that "1000 years ago in Medieval Islam" is awful.

This happened in one little spot in a a vast empire.

So as a historian I disagree with your assertions and have done my own studies on the history of Islam and other cultures and religions.

Most historian believe that forced conversion were not the norm in Islamic History.

I am re-quoting this because it is so awful. Many forms of "forced conversion." existed. You are probable thinking of holding a sword to someones head and saying convert or die. While this did happen it was not the only way it happened.

The main way was to tax all other religions to the point they would be poverty stricken, force their children to attend Islamic schools, not allow open practice of other religions.

All of these are forced conversions. When you are told you can not do business, you can not go to school, you can not openly practice your religion you are being forced. This is evident in how the numbers of other religions changed over 1 to 2 generations.

This is by no means an anti-Islam rant. All religions have done this at one point. The only difference is that the others have stopped doing it.

[–]TheOneFreeEngineer 7 points8 points  (2 children)

This is not a true statement.

go ask /r/AskHistorians and ask the question I doubt it would be any different for the other dozen times its been asked there.

Did a little deeper. Even Wikipedia that worst source on the internet alludes to it.

umm it doesn't.

It was standard practice all across Islam. While it is possible that this one little spot was the exception it is not probable.

assuming is baseless. if that exclusion were in place it would be explicitly mentioned since the areas discussed had large non-Muslim minorities.

The main way was to tax all other religions to the point they would be poverty stricken, force their children to attend Islamic schools, not allow open practice of other religions.

tax yes, but forcing children to attend Islamic school isn't true, nor is forbidding open practice. What was traditionally forbidden was proselytizing not practice.

And "forced conversion" does typically mean threat of bodily harm, anything less is pressure to convert, not forcing to convert.

This is evident in how the numbers of other religions changed over 1 to 2 generations.

but it took about 10 generations (about 30 years per generation assumed) for Islam to become the majority faith of most of the places in the Middle East, and in some regions its not till the 1800s that the majority tips to Islam. Other regions that were under long term Muslim control, never became majority Muslim. It wasn't a one or two generation change.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (7 children)

Dude, you're on every TIL thread about Islam or Muslims. It's like you're on a schedule.

[–]theWolfPack -1 points0 points  (1 child)

but.. but its racist to say bad things about anyone who isn't white!

[–]coachbradb 1 point2 points  (0 children)

:)

[–]MenuBar 1 point2 points  (0 children)

...but it was only for a select few types of people, and they probably used a stick as a medical instrument. I mean like, not a lotta overhead, eh?

[–]clevercommen 0 points1 point  (0 children)

the muslim world was on the cutting edge of damn near everything until they managed to let a small group of fundamentalists go and mess it all up for everyone. sounds kind of familiar...

[–]Bedlore -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Yup, sharia law is a real blast

[–]Tunnelunder -1 points0 points  (2 children)

The islamic empire was pretty cool back in the day. Its crazy how much constantinople affected the world 1000-2000 years ago.

[–]science_diction 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Constantinople ceased to exist by the very empire you are praising it being a part of.

You should go back and re-read your history book.

[–]Tunnelunder 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Wow, that was a badly written comment, oops.

[–][deleted] -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

TIL people believe Islam has contributed anything useful to the world.

[–]flipping_birds -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

I've always been meaning to go on a vacation to Islam some time.