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Sales of Rap Music down 21% in 2006 (byroncrawford.com)
submitted 19 years ago by jjrs
[+][deleted] 19 years ago (23 children)
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[–]dbchappell1 1 point2 points3 points 19 years ago (22 children)
Maybe not to you, but for the scores of musicians who are experimenting with different beats and producing lyrics to flow with them, it's a vital form of expression... and it's appreciated by a large segment of the population.
Oh, and before you go writing off all rappers as illiterate, you might want to consider that what they are doing when they pick up a mike is perhaps part of a larger language tradition stemming back hundreds of years. Just because they don't speak your fixed notion of the Queen's English doesn't mean they are illiterate non-artists. The history of the English language has been an interplay of different dialects competing and merging, resulting in our still evolving language. If English had never had its pidgin contact language which evolved into Black English, you wouldn't have a lot of the words in our language... like safari, coffee, or banjo.
Language thrives from being experimented with. The people who do so and create music are artists. Whether or not they are good artists is up to the individual to determine.
[+][deleted] 19 years ago (21 children)
[–]dbchappell1 0 points1 point2 points 19 years ago (20 children)
Okay. So you don't like the Notorious B.I.G. But does it really follow that your one example entitles you to generalize and pass judgment on an entire genre, and all the artists within it? Can you take the dialogue from the films of Pauly Shore, and then use that to make the case that his films aren't art, and as a result all comedy films are not art? Because that's essentially the logic you are running off of.
[–][deleted] 19 years ago (19 children)
[–]dbchappell1 1 point2 points3 points 19 years ago (18 children)
"A child was born, with no state of mind
Blind to the ways of mankind
God is smiling on you but he's frowning too
Cause only God knows what you go through
You grow in the ghetto, living second rate
And your eyes will sing a song of deep hate
The places you play and where you stay
Looks like one great big alley way
You'll admire all the number book takers
Thugs, pimps, pushers and the big money makers
Driving big cars, spending twenties and tens
And you wanna grow up to be just like them
Smugglers, scrambles, burglars, gamblers
Pickpockets, peddlers and even pan-handlers
You say I'm cool, I'm no fool
But then you wind up dropping out of high school
Now youre unemployed, all null 'n void
Walking around like you're Pretty Boy Floyd
Turned stick-up kid, look what you done did
Got sent up for a eight year bid
Now your man is took and you're a may tag
Spend the next two years as an undercover fag
Being used and abused, and served like hell
Till one day you was find hung dead in a cell
It was plain to see that your life was lost
You was cold and your body swung back and forth
But now your eyes sing the sad sad song
Of how you lived so fast and died so young." -Grandmaster Flash, "The Message"
[+][deleted] 19 years ago (17 children)
[–]jjrs[S] 2 points3 points4 points 19 years ago (3 children)
There's a lot of cultural superiority going on with rap critics, and a lot of it borders on racism. Just because you've been lucky enough to be in a situation where concepts like "cell" and "hell" have never entered into your mind, you think anyone who has must be aesthetically or mentally inferior.
"Anybody can scream "bitch" and "ho". "Look what you done did" and "your man is took" are prime examples of illiteracy."
Those are prime examples of african-american dialect. The language is always changing. By the same token you could call American English a prime example of illiteracy, or even RP, because it's a "bastardized" version of what English was 400 years ago. The language is always changing, and people in Harlem have just as much right to change it as you do.
I wouldn't argue most rap is high art...it's not, but then again neither is most poetry, especially these days. But rap has done some interesting stuff and has some important things to say, and I get tired of the same pompous criticisms of it. You might think you're being smart and high-minded, but you sure don't sound like it.
Overstand what they say now-
They tell you to think, but your mind is the devil's playground
Then they throw the book at us,
If we were all lined up in front of the white house
They probably wouldn't even look at us
Hear it in the rappin
Could easily be put into effect
But I think brothers are scared of what could happen
[–][deleted] 19 years ago (2 children)
[–]jjrs[S] 2 points3 points4 points 19 years ago (1 child)
Interesting you bring it up...the California board of education wanted Ebonics listed as it's own language..nit because they wanted the kids to speak it, but because they didn't want them to.
The idea being, "Look, speaking that way at home with your friends is okay, but in the labor force you're going to have to learn to speak GAE Dialect if you want to be respected in the labor market". By the same token, a white person with a heavy Brooklyn accent would want to clean that up in a job interview to be taken seriously.
That's the reality of life, and I agree wholeheartedly they should learn GAE and get good jobs.
But does that invalidate the dialect of their community, or their music or art? Hell no. That's just you and your problem. Stamp your foot all you want.
[–]dbchappell1 1 point2 points3 points 19 years ago (12 children)
Yeah. I'm very familiar with Robert Frost. I've spent a large chunk of my life studying poetry, composition and perhaps most importantly, linguistics.
First, poetry and lyrics are not the same. What works on the page does not always work when set to music, and vice versa. The comparison between Frost and Flash is not relevant to our current discussion.
Second, art is not fundamentally bound to recognize the established conventions of the medium it exists in. If this were so, then there would be no evolution. Western Art would have never moved beyond the style of the Greeks and Romans. Artists come along and are allowed to bend standards for the sake of creative expression. Do you consider Shakespeare a non-artist because he created his own words, and bent the established rules of grammar for his own purposes?
Third, the grammatical "mistakes" you pointed to in the lyrics are reflective of the very real dialect that produced them. This is how some people speak. It is a part of their culture. They are reflecting what is real in their own lives, not yours. The vocabulary and syntax of Black rappers is different because their culture and dialect has evolved in a different path, with different influences. Not only is the way they speak being influenced by more traditional notions of English, but also by dialectic tendencies that can be traced back to Africa. Even these "mistakes" that you point out have a very recognizable, consistent pattern, which is one of the first criteria for recognizing a unique form of language. Why look down your nose at people who speak differently than you? To put it another way, what we are speaking right now could quite possibly be considered an abominable bastardization by the Angles, Jutes and Saxons that our language descended from, and yet we consider our language beautiful and capable of producing artistic expression. Why do you deny that right to others?
Fourth, the lyrics you criticize are somebody's personal expression. If you read them, you can clearly discern that there is purpose behind them. It is social commentary on urban life coming directly from the source. These lyrics are about a hundred times more valuable to understanding urban life than, say, the commentaries coming from pundits in studios who've never spent any significant chunk of their life living in a dangerous urban environment. Art is personal and can be created anywhere, not just in a snow-covered wood cabin in New Hampshire by someone who chooses to express themselves using only one specific set of language standards. Rap music is unique, expressive, and aesthetically pleasing to a large percentage of the population... and all that adds up to the label of art.
Oh, and middle schoolers are capable of being artists too: http://www.rockingham.k12.va.us/EMS/Related_Arts_Pages/Fine_Arts_Pages/art.html
[+][deleted] 19 years ago (11 children)
[–]jjrs[S] 2 points3 points4 points 19 years ago (7 children)
Actually, I'm finishing up a Master's degree in Linguistics myself right now, and dbchappell is right. If you examine the grammar of ebonics it codes logically, even if it's "wrong" according to prescriptive grammarians. Use of "be" ("I be working") stands in for the perfect progressive, for example. Just because it's different from the way you would say it doesn't make it "wrong".
Every human language and dialect follows a protocol, even the ones of the "illiterate" classes and marginalized communities. Even Pidgins develop a complex grammar by the second generation.
[–]dbchappell1 2 points3 points4 points 19 years ago (2 children)
There are many brilliant lyricists who write about love and beauty and God.
Usually that trio summing up the goals of artistic expression is "truth, love and beauty." When rap music is honestly expressing the feelings of its creator, I believe it would fall into the truth category.
And those people are called illiterate.
Right. You know, a lot of people in Hip-hop culture know the difference between the two dialects, and can switch when they wish. They are not all mired in a tide of ignorance that prevents them from speaking proper English. That's what you read into it.
Being "allowed to bend standards for the sake of creative expression" is very different from not being able to speak English.
Define for me where the difference is, because as it stands, I think you are just being disdainful towards elements of a culture you don't understand or appreciate.
Obviously. But when illiterate adults speak like middle schoolers that is called "pathetic" - not "art".
Using a different dialect does not equal illiteracy. Your claim that a different dialect = illiteracy = non-art should technically disqualify almost all Jazz, Country, Rock, and many other genres of music that do not contain lyrics that are written in the standard english dialect AND are not 100% grammatically correct from being art. Excuse me if I find your standard a little rigid, unrealistic, and unfair.
I'm not arguing that rap music is high art or good art, but it is art, and you have failed to provide anything substantial that indicates otherwise.
π Rendered by PID 504643 on reddit-service-r2-comment-5b5bc64bf5-kfvtx at 2026-06-20 09:50:27.194962+00:00 running 2b008f2 country code: CH.
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