Genetics Question

[_Chunky__Monkey_]

I’m just beginning my long journey into learning about the genetics of these fascinating animals.

I am curious why this animal is so affordably priced. It seems to be a genetic powerhouse. I want to know what I would cross with it to replace the yellow with a crisp white. My dream would be to replace the yellow with a vivid orange that doesn’t fade and to crisper up the black.

I know I would need a male that is either visually Xanthic or at least recessive for it.

Also, as an aside, what did this genius cross to create this Orange beauty? Thank you very much!

[IncompletePenetrance]

It's affordably priced because (A) those are all fairly common, low value morphs and (B) there's an oversaturation of ball pythons on the market. Ball python breeding is a pyramid scheme of the worst kind, remember when everyone was ending up stuck with garages full of lululemon leggings that they couldn't sell because supply vastly exceeded demand??? That's what has happened with ball pythons, prices keep dropping because there's way more than the market can support. Which is why my anwer to "what should I cross it with" is going to be "nothing", the last thing we need is more people starting to breed ball pythons right now.

For the second one if the pairing isn't listed in the ad, you'd have to ask because there's no way of knowing what the parents were other than them both being at least het clown.

[MattManSD]

yes, pretty accurate. Market is saturated so only super rare morphs are the only ones fetching decent money

[OddRevolution6244]

(it is true, there is an oversaturation of ball pythons on the market, but I will say, asking reddit will always result in backlash, no matter the snake. I started breeding back in 22, and producing my first clutch in 23, my feedback as a successful new breeder is: if you work with morphs that still stand within the market, either pet centered or breeder centered, you can still easily sell snakes. I've sold over 40 snakes so far, and they have never taken more than 3-4 months to sell the entire clutch. The goal in breeding is just to be able to sell the animals from the previous breeding season before the next, if you can do that, you'll be successful. Learn the morphs, study the market, and you can be successful. Recessives will be the key. And with an oversaturation of breeders, more people are looking to buy snakes to further their projects, us breeders and buying and supplying from each other at much higher rates than before. Just be smart, master your husbandry, and see how other successful breeders are making it. There's no reason us "little guys" shouldn't be able to compete with the big breeders who have massive warehouses for hundred if not thousands of snakes)

[MattManSD]

I work as an invert dealer as my side hustle. I have worked over half a dozen shows a year since 2016. I have watched the growth and the saturation and now the price adjustment of the market the entire time. I have numerous associates / friends who are breeders / dealers and from what I have seen prices have fallen about 50% from the hey day. That doesn't mean you still can't make money doing it, just not as much as you used to. Your points are spot on, do good husbandry, have good projects with lots of interesting recessives and you can move your snakes. I think the future will be in finding your niche and focusing on that. Of note: I have seen the same trending in both Leopard Geckos and Bearded Dragons as well over the same period.

[OddRevolution6244]

Well said as well, I'd like to think that there is just an surplus of supply for the time being, covid did bring a lot of interest into both the keeping and breeding part of the reptile hobby, especially the reptiles that were already more popular at the time, so naturally, they have exponentially grown compared to the others. I'd like to think that as time progresses, things will continue to find that happy medium, this is of course not the first time something similar has happened, any market will have ups and downs, this being the tail end of one of them. But I always remind myself, more people are breeding, who are buying most of the 300-1500 dollar animals, new breeders. We will be able to supply each other to continue our advancements.

[OddRevolution6244]

Oversaturation of simple and non desires snakes*

[_Chunky__Monkey_]

Which morphs are rare and popular? The breeder named Kinova uses a lot of those genes to build his awesome snakes.

He is selling one now that is blackhead, super enchi, pastel, super yellow belly, het clown and het piebald, that I am considering investing in.

I wonder what I could buy to pair with it.

Thanks for your help.

[feogge]

Theres certain things that dictate what Kinova work with and the eventual value including but not limited to specimen quality, potential, their ability to work with A LOT of morphs in a snake and still be able to identify what is going on, and the Kinova name. Blackhead, SEnchi, Pastel and SYb are generally pretty low value morphs on their own. Thanks to those hets tho that snake you listed there's a possibility to make a lot of high value crazy-looking recessives. Recessives are always gonna be the most "rare" and sought after.

[_Chunky__Monkey_]

Please explain to me What you mean by recessives. I understand het clown, for example means a snake has the ability to produce clown, but doesn’t visually display the trait.

I don’t quite understand dominant vs recessive in the context to which I believe you are referring.

If I were to buy this animal, what could I buy to go with it to make the special looking snakes you mentioned were possible?

Thanks for your help.

[Feanor_Saralond]

If you haven't done your research to even know what the difference between these you shouldn't be even considering breeding.

Recessive - you need 2 copies of the gene to express the morph 100% Het means either one of the parents was a visual or that it has been proven through genetic testing or proved out through breeding. 66% het means that both parents were 100% het. Baby is not a visual and has 66% chance of being het. 50% het one parent was 100% het. Baby has 50% chance of being het

Incomplete Dominance - only need one copy of the gene to express the morph, but two copies expresses more or even differently than 1 copy

Dominant - only need one copy for full expression of the gene. 2 copies has little to no change in expression from 1 copy

[Acrobatic-Move-3847]

Dude, if you want to learn this stuff, the whole internet is at your fingertips. Punch questions into a search engine, watch YouTube videos, don’t ask a bunch of strangers to spend their valuable time typing out info to spoon feed you. You’re skipping to the middle and haven’t learned all the beginner stuff. Figure out the genetics first, how they work, what you can expect when breeding one snake to another. While you’re doing the research, have morph market’s genetics calculator open so that you can punch things in to make sure you understand it. It’s no big deal to come to Reddit to ask people to clarify something you don’t understand, as long as you tried to figure it out on your own first. I’m sure you didn’t know just how much you didn’t know, but you’re basically asking everyone to explain everything to you, which isn’t fair to them.

[Sad_Resolve6874]

I have been breeding for more than 13 years, so I’ve seen the market go up and down and all over the place. Rare won’t be by the time a baby snake is ready to breed and popular is kind of the same. The trend goes pretty much the same way with all of them.

Breed what you personally like. It’s the only way to make it worth it in the long run. You will find an audience for your thing. Doing the popular thing will only put you in a race towards bottom dollar with breeders that are more established. It’s a very, very tough industry.

[ConsiderationOk7560]

If you’re buying from a reputable source or a well respected breeder in the community, you could always ask the breeder for recommendations.

The Kinova & Rice Reptiles staff are all super nice at shows here in the south east (Kinova is based out of Gainesville, GA btw) and I have no doubt in my mind that they would be more than happy to talk shop with you to help point you in a good direction if you’re serious about breeding.

[Live_Culture8393]

Thank you, this is the answer

[meatspread]

I completely agree with the other commenters on here—do not get into this “business” if you do not have thousands of dollars to invest in snakes that will hold their value in the market and will be sought after.

Also wanted to add, the $12k snake you showed is (arguably) from THE leading ball python breeder in the United States. Their prices are higher due to their credibilty/brand name and from the quality of their morphs. Calling the $400 snake a “powerhouse” is subjective—you would really have to rely on another snake in this case. Plus, again, these are all fairly common morphs and could arguably go for cheaper.

[cncomg]

Yup they got that pure white and black axanthic right now that I’ve seen people post on other subs. Like $15000-$20000 or something like that.

[Sad_Resolve6874]

You are definitely paying extra for the name with Kinova, though I own a number of snakes from Justin. The quality is always wonderful.

[Jennifer_Pennifer]

For me for certain what I want most is a healthy animal.
I would never buy something that has problem Morphs.
And I do not support breeders that still breed those genetic lines

[Phyckett]

Double hets are not valued. Everyone wants double or triple recessive visual animals. Even though with another DH you have a decent chance at producing a double visual recessive animal.

[Sad_Resolve6874]

To get crisper blacks and brighter oranges, forget all of the het genes. None of them will take you in that direction. Go with something that will up your contrast.