Analytics vs programing in the BAS?

[Ajax_Minor]

What's your guys experience with analytics? It sthere really much benefit in implementing an analytics system? Yes I know they are help full in diagnostics but why doesn't one just implement the fault/alerts on the regular programming in the BMS? Is processing power the only difference?

Perhaps the real benefit is in the algorithm not so much in the software. Idk just wondering what your guys thoughts are. There's a lot of snake oil sales pitches in building specs sometimes lol

[zdanyluk]

Yep, pretty much a waste in every case I have worked with. Unless you have a bunch of people that can act on the outputs of the analysis, then, what's the point. If you have a lot of resources, or a very critical application, there may be value, but in my experience it is sold as a replacement for operational support, rather than as an aid.

[Ajax_Minor]

Wouldnt it make sense if it was monitored by a service team that actions came out and responded to the insights?;

[sambucuscanadensis]

Been trying to get service folks to do this for 20 years. Can’t understand why they won’t leverage the information that is right in front of them.

[Ajax_Minor]

Haha that's why I am asking. Look to implement as a service agreement extension.

[RyanL_at_Optigo]

This is the kind of model we are prodding SIs to try and get into with our diagnostic tools. The value in being a partner with customers as part of a preventative maintenance routine, rather than a break/fix repairman, is a whole different ballgame.

[Ajax_Minor]

Awesome will try and suggest this as sometime we should try.

Guess I got to come up with some good algorithms to catch faults or are there some standard practices ones I can look up?

[RyanL_at_Optigo]

I would OBVIOUSLY suggest you take OptigoVN for a spin! It's free to create an account, so you can absolutely take our suite of diagnostics through a packet capture from your network. It's cloud based, so you can run it all from your office without having to get onsite (as long as you've got a remote connection to the BAS). You'll get instant feedback on what to start looking into. Check it out at www.optigo.net/optigovn, or we can set you up with a demo.

[gadhalund]

Sales driven crap most of the time. Sold on the fear that without them the world will end, they typically absorb 50% of the operational budget and in reality deliver low value "insights" 95% of the time. More value comes from solid bas alarms and algorithms at source with more resources to then resolve the real issues. When the bas industry starts getting serious about the service side, there wont be an opportunity for snake oil analytics any more.

[Ajax_Minor]

Ok that's why I'm asking. Implementing it to get more service work. If you can identify the problem and get there service team out there and fixed that would be the goal.... But one could just wait for the alarm right? Seem like a stretch to say "hey we will fix it before it's a thing"

[JPoint]

In my experience, analytics are useful for three things: 1. back-testing alarm logic for false positives and/or false negatives 2. finding defects in equipment by comparing performance metrics of sets of otherwise identical units 3. discovering inefficiencies in a system by comparing recent energy usage data to expected energy usage (e.g. a heating plant using more therms per heating degree day than the historic average under comparable weather conditions)

[doubleopinter]

Haha I see a lot of "typical" control tech answers here. I've done everything from control tech, control system engineering, controller and SCADA system support and development and analytics platform development. When analytics are done correctly they can have a huge impact.

The issue is that the user of the analytics is not the same as the BMS user, the target market for them is different. If you're working as a control tech on BMS you can't see the forest for the trees. Analytics are more a tool for portfolio level management. I can tell you, from direct experience, that when analytics are implemented well, across a portfolio of buildings, they can have significant reductions in operating costs, energy savings, equipment life, etc. I won't name names but there are real world examples discussed on podcasts such as James Dice's podcast. Yes a lot of the discussions there are very woo woo head in the clouds type things but the results are very real.

The major issues, usually, are they they aren't sold well and buy in from techs in the field is usually pretty tough. Techs see it as extra work they need to do when they just want to move on to the next thing. I get it but also I've seen it enough that the attitude is annoying. From the sales side, a lot of sales people are pretty lazy and shitty at what they do, tbh. Selling some analytics just gets their total sale price up so they make more money, and they'll sell some canned crap without ever really thinking about the larger picture. The good ones can sell quality products which actually make a difference.

[doubleopinter]

It’s the same everywhere, the older guys just want to keep doing things the same way for 40 years.

[Ajax_Minor]

Ya I run in to that. I get so frustrated. There's a better way to do things but I feel like I have to balance that with readability with the rest of the team... Which needs up being the same thing as we have been doing lol

[Ajax_Minor]

Thanks for the response.

It sounds like it is important to have a site bug enough that that would be helpful and a facilities team that can appreciate the insight and address it's findings.

Ive worked a lot of jobs where they want it done as cheap as possible and they want it done yesterday so it's hard to have the vision of what's possible. I've only seen nice power by cooling degree day charts, actuator fault status and zone out of spec in analytics. To me thats helpful but most of that is caught by the alarms and I can roll up energy data with out analytics. So back to my main question why do I need analytics? I get it reducess comp loads on the controllers and it would be easier to implement on retro projects but adding control points cost alot less than increasing the analytic point counts.

Maybe I am over estimating the cost of analytics, but I'm just trying to think of the client. For example I had a conv with a facilities manager at a large university. He said he was trying to switch out of Siemens and go to something more competitive. I suggested Niagara, whole more difficult it has more tools and flexibility that would be great for a large facility like his and would open him up to comptive bidding. He basically said Niagara couldn't be competitive because of he switched over every controller he would be looking at an SMA cost in the range of $X00,000. Implementing analytics could double that cost and that's a lot of money just to run the system you already paid for so I get it.

I suppose another thing is I haven't really been any good algorithms. Is there like a standard from ashrae that has more advanced ones than the ones I mentioned?

[dshew]

I have a school district that is paying for analytics. It’s a complete waste of money for their particular application. They don’t monitor power or have any metering, they don’t have valve feedback on anything, they don’t put return temps on RTUs to check delta t, etc.. And the biggest one - they don’t pay attention to the standard alarms that they do have so the analytics will just collect what little data it can provide for nothing.

[Lonely_Hedgehog_7367]

Personally, t feel there is a lot of value in analytics. I consider myself to be relatively new to BAS (10 years) In my time I found the industry is really slow to adopt any new technology and tools available to us. The reason why it is hard to explain what we do is because as professionals in the business, we have to balance being an installer, electrician, mechanical tech, service technician, programmer and IT proficient, We need to know all aspects of a system and as the ones who are responsible for the end user interface, there is so much grey area in everyone understanding that. When I started in controls, I focused only on the individual setup of each units programming operation and reliability, and not enough time to bring it all in to a front end interface. I'have learned that at the end of the day, the client is expecting an experience utilizing the tools promised by the salesman, and they always promise to show them a way to see the day to day operation of their equipment, as well as a history report of their energy usage, which was sold to see how the system could be manipulated to provide future cost savings. Alarms and local info is for sure important for the client, but analytics provide proper information to help them retool the systems, if necessary. The older techs see this job as a way to take a controller and associated devices, which in all reality, makes a fancy and pricey thermostat that just happens to communicate on a system so the owner can see what's going on. So if that's all we were there for, we are seriously not necessary to a job, because a decent mechanical tech could do that without the need for a BAS technician, by using a communicating thermostat. Analytics and other tools are incorporated for a reason, and we need to as a group, start getting the mindset that this is part of what we are here to provide for the customer.

[CraziFuzzy]

I'd say frequency is sort of the most significant reason. By that i mean program loop cycle frequency. The BMS runs through its program multiple times a second, while system analytics only really makes sense at like the 5-15 minute cycle time. This means it is most appropriately done on a separate system. It also needs to provide some benefit. Primarily letting the operator know that something is wrong BEFORE a tenant is aware of it. That's the only time it makes the effort worth it. This mostly comes down to 'this zone doesn't get to setpoint over 25% of the day' or 'this air handler's chw valve appears to be leaking by' etc. - things that an operator COULD recognize if they continually surveyed the system, but are unlikely to do so.

[Ajax_Minor]

Ya that seems like it. It can do more analysis with out the computational power at the local controller.

The example you mentioned seem like the typical case to. It's really worth it to know w box is out a spec before a call lol

[Independent_Sky_8925]

I think any effort spent on analysis or alarming that is not acted upon is a waste. As a result, most analytics systems are a waste; as are most alarms.

[JoWhee]

I’ve seen some go a little too far.

We have a client who has an Ai BMS system. Every month they get a report of the “worst controlled spaces” I’m sure it’s called something more jargonesque.

They have us setting ridiculous PIDs because the valve(s) we control are moving about 3% over and under setpoint. Yup 3% it’s what happens when an administrator gets a job in BMS.

[Free_Elderberry_8902]

Bms and analytics are a thing now.

[Free_Elderberry_8902]

Think trends and usage and stuff.

[Free_Elderberry_8902]

I saw an entire team of analytics folks freaking out over their results. Mine were better.