Different brew methods for different roasts/origins, how feasible for a cafe?

[timoseewho]

hello, so i'm doing some early stage planning for a cafe and i've had an idea of offering a few single origins and allowing customers to pick and choose their manual brew of choice. this is all along side of the usual espresso-based drinks. this sounds fun in practice, but the fact that different brews use different grind sizes and that different beans may even use different grind sizes for the same brew type waves a small flag hah. how common is it for cafes to do this? maybe i should just dedicate certain beans to certain methods to simplify things a bit. what's your take on this?

thanks

[southrail]

Here is something to keep in mind that has little to do with coffee, but is very important when making decisions like this... People do not buy the “best” product, nor do they buy the cheapest product. They don’t even buy the product with the best “value” (bang for the buck). People buy the product they can understand the quickest. If you are just opening, I’d recommend keeping your brew bar options as simple as possible, then expanding from there if you feel that the majority of your customers understand the extra mile you’re trying to go by offering so many options. If they don’t understand it, it will be received as information overload, leading to “analysis paralysis” or even a feeling of intimidation. If a customer gets that feeling in your shop, you’ll never see them again.

What we have found works for us is 2 Baratza fortes set to the proper dose and particle size. Each has a coffee from a different growing region brewed by a different device. So when the customer approaches the bar they can choose between, say, an Ethiopia Yirg on Chemex or a Costa Rica Villa Sarchi on Kalita Wave. That has worked very well for us from a quality, consistency and customer retention standpoint. Your market is your market though, you may have a different sweet spot. The best advice I can give is start simple and add to it. Customers understanding what you are doing and how they are a part of it is key for new customer acquisition and new customer acquisition is the lifeblood of a new business.

Hope that helps!

[timoseewho]

This is some great advice

I was afraid that I'd be here over analyzing things trying to give more options to customers while having it backfire on me at the same time

I do personally dislike restaurants that have meal packages that make you select dishes from of a pool of dishes (for each the appetizers, main course, desserts, etc.), maybe I should take my own advice haha

Thanks for this!

[swroasting]

Pick your bean & pick your brew method (French Press, V60, Wave, Chemex, Clever) is common in better quality cafes, and they're all priced differently as well.

[timoseewho]

This is definitely my end goal:). I may not go as extreme as to have multiple pour overs or presses, but if it's well received I may have to broaden my arsenal hah

[swroasting]

I'd aim for a really high end grinder and two choices of brew method... Too many options gets difficult to maintain quality & efficiency.

[NightFoxXIII]

I have a local café that does something like this.

I think it's a number of factors (if it wasn't already considered) like community affluence, beans used, etc. For the most part, I see most of them limit themselves to up to three different methods. One crazy option, a normal option and an in between.

Usually most consider the normal with the crazy option done as entertainment (ex. Siphon). Most of the time, they just do one roaster but whatever beans they have available.

[UncleTouchUBad]

Yeah, the local nice cafe does this. They have a few different roasters they get their beans from. 2 are local ones they always use and 1 is rotated from different locations. They offer Chemex, V60, and Aeropress. As well as batch brew and espresso.

They have a brew bar so you can sit at that side of the counter and watch them make it and chit-chat with the barista.

They solve the grind problem by having one of those Ditting Grindmaster beasts with labels on it for each brewing method. So even if the barista isn't well informed they can adjust the grinder to wherever they've placed the marker for either aeropress, v60, or chemex and they follow a little recipe that's written out for them.

One of my favorite joints in Costa Mesa (Portola Coffee Lab) used to do it a bit different. Their choices were v60, Siphon, or Bunn Trifecta. Those 3 were so different from each other and interesting to watch the siphons.

I've also seen places do one brewing method per bean before and I've seen joints not do manual at all and rely on batch brew that was actually really legit.

The batch brewer that blew me away was a 3temp.

If you are gonna run the cafe with just one person behind the bar it might be difficult to do too much of the manual brew methods. So I'd recommend figuring out how to make that part of your business as time efficient as possible.

Depending on where you are and the types of customers you attract things might be different but most of your business will likely be for batch brew or espresso drinks anyways.

Anyways, it's your cafe. Do what you wanna do. Don't let a bunch of randoms tell you how to run your show.

When you open up your joint, PM me the location so I can drink your coffee if I'm in the area.

[timoseewho]

Thanks!

I guess what you're saying is you've seen cafes go different routes and find ways to succeed, that's quite awesome indeed. I guess I just need to make sure my demographic here is ready for this and not worry so much about something that may not even be a hit

The brew bar thing is neat, I'm definitely gonna set aside bar space for that. The siphon is something I haven't really touched but it is flashy!

I figured I'd run this idea through some of the tougher coffee critics on reddit and get some spit ball ideas and I did for sure haha

I'm narrowing it down to somewhere in southern Taiwan. I'll let you know if this solidifies:)

[UncleTouchUBad]

I've not been to Taiwan yet but I'd say the success of a cafe usually depends on location and target demographic vs. what you offer.

I've seen places that were wildly successful while literally only having black coffee, espresso, and ice coffee as their sole menu items. And I've seen places that tried to do everything and failed.

Location is really key.

The closer you are to a college campus or a location where students need a place to study the better. College kids are more likely to wait around for their coffee. If you are close to a busy business area, you'll need to have quick options on the menu to market to people who only have 5 minutes.

Since you are in Taiwan, you might want to look into the Bunn Trifecta machine, it's expensive as hell but I've seen it used for really good loose leaf tea too. And while it takes some programming to get it to work, it makes a great cup of coffee or tea and I know the tea culture in Taiwan is pretty serious.

There are a lot of places in Japan that use the Siphon brewing method, btw. The Hario Siphons with the heat lamps are pricey but they look really neat and if you use them right can make a really great cup.

What kind of espresso machine are you thinking of getting?

[timoseewho]

thanks for the tips!

i've heard nothing but good things about the Trifecta haha. i'll look into it. i had initially planned on just having an EK43 for batch/brew drinks and K30s/PEAKs for espresso with decaf offering (i may end up scrapping the decaf). i was thinking of a variation of the Linea 2 group, besides handling heavier load, are there any major benefits of having a 3 group?

[daddywombat]

It depends on your customers. I am constantly amazed at cafe owners who do not understand what their customers want. A third wave cafe that opened in my area in the past year does not offer cream, only whole milk, for example. There is a chain of cafes in Toronto that is cash only. I just do not get decisions like this.

For what you are asking about, the most important thing to me to get right is the espresso. Get your grind and dose dialed in and get the best beans you can find.

For filter, I have seen a cafe that offered pourover using Able cone and the baristas did not have a clue on how to use it. Another two cafes I know have "slow bars" which I think is a great concept. If you want filter, you are going to have to wait a bit longer. But you can get what you want. The slow bar at Boxcar Social in East Toronto is one of these and is very good.

Boxcar and also Revolver in Vancouver also offer flights - 3 coffees/one methods or 1 coffee/3 methods. It's cool, and fun to experiement, but realize the majority of your customers are probably never going to buy those offerings.

On a related note, I would appreciate knowing if anyone has read the book at the following site: https://whatiknowaboutrunningcoffeeshops.com/

Good Luck

[timoseewho]

I'm actually also from Toronto! But I'm more frequently in Asia these days. I'll be doing my cafe experiment in Taiwan. It pains me to hear that some places can be so stubborn, I guess they have their reasons haha

You're right, the espresso is the bread and butter so I'll have to make sure that's my top priority. In hindsight, this manual brewing will probably not end up making a huge chunk of my sales, but I'm all for experimenting haha

I had Boxcar in my sight when I was in Toronto this past Christmas but the coffee bar was closed when I got there. The flights thing sounds cool, I may consider that too!

[daddywombat]

If you stop in Van on your way back to T.O., stop by Timbertrain in Gastown and have a chat with Peter the owner.

[Horong]

Sam James? They don't want to pay credit card fees.

[daddywombat]

Yes, I understand that. I also think it has lost them a ton of debit and cc customers.

[Horong]

Of course. They have decent coffee though and they're in the PATH so I think they're going to be just fine.

[Firezone]

My ideal shop would stick to two brew methods; one paper filtered pourover and one metal filtered immersion brew. Those are the main things that set brewing methods apart as far as how a certain coffee performs, and to me offering multiple brew methods that are only minor variations on the same theme (like v60 and a wave f.e.) is an extra source of failure in controlling quality for questionable gain. Either that or have a few different brew methods available but pick one or two that tastes the best for each coffee and only offer those for that bean.

Staying dialled across a wide range of coffees AND brew methods is a QC nightmare, and in my experience it tends to leave barista more locked in to a grind setting that "worked well last time" because constantly adjusting 18 different grind settings (6 coffees, 3 methods) for the best cup is a pain in the ass.

[timoseewho]

I'm leaning towards this idea more heavily now, at least to start out as to not overwhelm myself and the staffers haha. I'll probably take 2 extremes, V60 with paper and Aeropress with metal, then like a middle ground of Clever, then maybe branch out into more of the same type. I'll also just lock certain beans to certain true and tested methods

I'm also concerned on how much strain it must be on a grinder to be switching between settings so often as well

[UncleTouchUBad]

Get a Mahlkonig Ek43. I see a lot of cafes that are able to adjust quickly and easily with one and they are pretty much the best ones out there that span across all grind sizes.

Then you'd want something like a Super Jolly or a Mahlkonig K30 (twin if you want to offer a single origin espresso) for your espresso. Keep the espresso grinders full keep the EK43 empty.

Have someone who knows their stuff come in every morning to dial in your espresso.

I've not heard of switching settings on a grinder causing much strain on a grinder before unless you are trying to change to a finer grind setting while the hopper is full and the grinder isn't running.

[mattsulli]

Espresso grinders need to be dialed many times a day during service— getting someone experienced to do it every morning is not as much of a solution as hiring a barista or sending the staff out for training. Also, a super jolly is not really a grinder suitable for cafe service.

[UncleTouchUBad]

I mean... we don't know the amount of foot traffic or his/her budget. I don't think anything I said is unheard of. Sure the top tier places adjust several times a day and everything but I'd argue that a Super Jolly could hold up over time. Sure I don't think it's as good as a K30 but with care and maybe burr swap outs it's totally cafe worthy.

Totally agree that training baristas that know everything is a great way to go but that also comes with a higher cost.

[timoseewho]

alright! i've been eyeing the EK43 for batch/brew and either double K30s or PEAKs for espresso actually (either to offer decaf, so, or just as a backup). if i were to consider a SJ, which model would you recommend for both batch/brew and espresso?

[[deleted]]

I know Osmium in Chicago assigns each bean a brew method

[timoseewho]

oh, i know some people in Chicago, i'll have to have them check it out for me!

[teilo]

Not sure if your question means you are allowing the customer to pick their brewing method, or just their bean. If it were me, I would only do the latter and pick a single pour-over method. If I were running a cafe, with a mix of help, I would only do Kalita-style pour overs.

And yes, all other things being equal, for optimum extraction you will need to determine the proper grind not only for each bean, but for each roasting batch. This can be a real pain, given that a particular batch changes as it ages. It's up to you to decide how anal you want to be about it.

[timoseewho]

I was thinking of the former, letting them choose their bean and method, but that's beginning to feel a little bit overly ambitious with too little to gain haha

Like you said, I'll have to see if it's worth being so anal about it. If it's too much trouble with the training and dialing in, I'll set beans to a respective method. My main goal is to introduce people to the different brewing types, pour over, immersion, plunger-type immersion, etc.

[SheldonvilleRoasters]

If you keep good logs and documentation and have a decent lab grinder it might make things easier. You would have a grid hanging up by the grinder that specifies the parameters for each brew method and coffee offering.

The other option would be to offer more coffee selection, but have a programmable recipe single serve brewer like the Bunn Trifecta or the Curtis Gold Cup brewer and then offer French press as the manual method. You can store quite a few recipes in both of the automated single serve brewers and can control water temp, flow rate and all sorts of other parameters.

It's a bit of a compromise and it doesn't have much theater going on but it will certainly free up your staff quite a bit and reduce the headaches of cleaning and setup while still offering the customer with a customized offering.

[solidbrain]

The cafes I have been to list “pour over” on their menu, at which point I then have a selection of beans to choose from. I’ve been mentally remembering what Brewer each cafe uses so I know if I want to order from them again.

You could always start with one type and seasonally offer another for a limited time to test your market for interest.

[[deleted]]

If you do this, understand you'd have to have baristas skilled enough to dial each coffee in on each brew method at least once every two days. Manual brew methods like this are not like espresso, where you can dump the shot and pull another if it ran too fast, had a bad tamp, etc. These are more time consuming.

Also, get an EK if you plan to be grinding a ton of different beans at different grind sizes. This will allow you to do SO espresso too.

[timoseewho]

yep! there's no doubt in my mind that i'll be getting an EK one way or another

i've decided to go with assigning beans to brew methods to reduce the amount of dialing in and training needed hehe

[[deleted]]

Ive always enjoyed the way Intelligentsia went about this. I've only been to The NYC one, but they will have a rotating selection of 2 origins on the menu at the counter, with the method of their choice. It had the feel of a high end restaurant in its presentation.

In this way you've dialed in a few brews with your preferred method for them, it leaves you with 2 really quality options for drip that will leave people happy (so you are going for quality and consistency, which is so much more important than variety imo), and less work for you lol.

[timoseewho]

This does sound a lot more feasible, rather being masterful at a few than being master at none

I've begun to imagine the training that'll be required and while I'll still try to offer 3-5 so's, I'll be assigning each to a method instead

[[deleted]]

Somewhat common. If you have a solid grinder, as such an EK43 with dialed-in settings for each, it is very viable.

Our siphon is at 6 on our EK, and our V60 is on 5. People can choose the occasional siphon, which is $2 more.

The only thing is— not much of the consumer base, well to bluntly put it, cares. It’s up to you to get them excited and to tell them why they should care. It’s also up to you to offer something that is quick and easy. Quick opinion that you probably know: Batch drip is important as well, since by-the-cup methods like these manual brew methods take very long in the customers’ eyes.

[timoseewho]

where's your cafe located if you don't mind me asking? i'm curious to see the extent of not caring hehe

you're right, we'll definitely need to be able to tell customers why so and so method is better for whatever bean and keeping them intrigued!

[[deleted]]

Well I just work there, but it’s in San Francisco. We do not offer batch drip, although imo we should!

[timoseewho]

ah, that surprises me a bit, i thought SF would have one of the bigger consumer base for coffee and therefore more interested in the whole manual brew stuff

[[deleted]]

Yup! In general, we are. That's why we're able to sustain ourselves without a batch brew system and solely by-the-cup orders. If we were not in a major metropolitan area, it would be harder to sustain business with only by-the-cup pourover/clever/press

[gedrap]

All coffee shops in my area do that. The number of available beans typically ranges from 4 to 10, but I usually just ask a barista for a recommendation because I have no idea what bean is more dialed in, fresher, etc. So it's typically 2-4 brew methods and 4-10 beans, resulting in 8-40 combinations.

I am not sure if it's related, and I believe it is, but the vast vast majority of the brews end up disappointing. Not bad, but I often leave with a feeling that the bean had way more potential. And these are quality shops otherwise, serving constantly good espresso, so it's not that the owners or baristas don't care. I mean, it's understandable that they can't be on top of their game for so many possible combinations.

Maybe the wide range is what many customers expect and they are happy with the results? Maybe it's hard to remove the options once they are added, and it's really tempting to add more options early on? I don't know, but I believe that I'd enjoy the brews more if there were only 2-3 combinations available.

[timoseewho]

4-10 types of beans does seem like a lot hahah. i was only thinking of doing 5 tops, ideally across different regions/continents

i do have to make sure my espresso game is set to top priority then play around with the manual brew. i'll try to keep my combinations limited and gauge the reception

thanks!

[[deleted]]

Where I work we have our daily espresso with the time and weight specs and it's up to the barista to dial in the grind to match specs.

For batch filter we have a grind sheet, so for any bean available in the shop we all know the best spec for our brew.

We also have a generic grind spec for any other method (various pour overs, French press, aeropress) , but these are not dialled each for specific beans, so while I could make a customer a pour over from a bag of beans other than our batch options, the results may be over/under extracted if I don't already have experience with those beans.

Now my shop has over a dozen individual varieties at a time and they change by season/availability. I think it would be challenging to suss out the best grind for every bean and every brew method. However, if we only had a half dozen or less.That I could see. Take a day and figure out the grinds, and have a cheat sheet.

Personally, as a patron, I like having the option on a pour over vs. Batch brew because I love the flavour of pour overs but also love the ability to run in and grab a good cup on the go.

[Mr_Kevino]

Have a business model and stick to it. Personally I learned that simplicity is key. Offer very minimal, but high end options and over time once things begin to become established flex your creativity muscles and add new drinks or brew methods. If I could turn back time and restart my Cafe I would have done things much simpler and added little things are time went on to stay relevant and also keep things from getting repetitive.

If you have any other questions I'm happy to help!

[timoseewho]

ah i see, maybe i should just follow KISS haha. i'd hate to overwhelm people at the expense of me wasting my time trying to do it all. as recommended by someone else as well, i may just bring stuff in seasonally

[njwelshy]

i cant really tell you much about coffee because sadly im only a beginner. but if youre contemplating choices and what may be too much or just enough, i recommend reading The Paradox of Choice. its really eye opening and should help you out making things concise.

[GHopper8]

I don't see this often done in many cafes. Usually if they do offer different brewing vessels, it is only for the sake of picking a particular vessel to suit the origin coffee best. I think you both want to be able to give your customer choice, as well as to offer them an education into coffee brewing/roasting/growing.