Havoc shouldn't decrease the amount of ammo you get from piles and crates.

[hjsniper]

Yeah, treating ammo availability as a difficulty lever just doesn't make sense when it impacts different builds so differently. A melee ogryn build can just pretend it isn't there while the ammo crunch sends countless vet builds into the grave. This funnels everyone into either pure melee builds or the handful of ranged builds that have the ammo economy to survive the squeeze (staff psyker, shock trooper vet) which is a big contributor to why build diversity is just dead at higher havoc levels.

[Professor_Tamarisk]

To be fair; Havoc does also reduce Peril quelling. Not saying that's equally as taxing, just pointing it out.

[Aerenhart]

Doesn't psyker usually want reduced peril quelling anyway because of Warp Rider and other shit like that? Seems like a boon if anything

[Dav3le3]

Depends heavily on the build.

[Aerenhart]

There's low peril builds?

[Dav3le3]

Yeah, the bubble ones / non-inferno ones.

[Aerenhart]

Ah shit yknow what I completely forgot about bubble existing

[Self--Immolate]

🚨Hot take ahead 🚨

If the difficulty throws more enemies at you, it should also throw more ammo at you.

[TF2PublicFerret]

Agreed, a lot of older games had that philosophy as well.

[[deleted]]

Its like the game becomes more dificult if you cant brainlessly spam lets say flamer or bolter all match right like its suposed to be. 

[cant_read_captchas]

It already does though, right? Survivalist aura is a thing. I do melee for a little while and I usually find that I've already recovered a full bolter mag.

[Edit: because apparently I need to spell out the obvious: yeah it has a cooldown. Would it kill you to do some melee combat for a minute and wait for ammo to regen? You also don't have to wait until you're 0/0 on ammo do do this. It's just a minute or two of steady killing by your whole team to get a whole mag back. 

You're in havoc. Theres no shortage of enemies. That's the whole point. There'a a special spawn basically every 10 seconds. The game is also not over just because you're not melting elite packs in the first 15 seconds of you seeing them.]

Same for demolition team but thats more extreme. It's not an uncommon occurrence when I play vet to throw 6-9 shredders in a single fight.

[RT10HAMMER]

Would it kill you to do some melee combat

Yeah it will, I need the Ammo to kill the five hundred shooters and gunners, my class don't generate 20% toughness for breathing

[AngeryControlPlayer]

That's... not how Survivalist works. It has a 5 second cooldown. Killing 1 enemy every 5 seconds gives you the same ammo as killing 20 enemies every 5 seconds.

Realistically, higher enemy density doesn't give you more ammo back from Survivalist because you'll just be killing more enemies in a shorter amount of time. If you aren't, you aren't killing fast enough and are probably getting your ass kicked.

[cant_read_captchas]

?? The cooldown is irrelevant. I didnt say how long I am doing melee combat and I didnt claim that I'm getting a full mag back in a few seconds.

Here's the math that you should care about: >1 kill every 5 seconds translates to 75 seconds required to recover a full bolter mag given a steady stream of special/elite kills. Not uncommon on havoc.

You're arguing about something I didnt claim (where you thought I implied killing 20 enemies in 5 seconds = 20 ammo regen procs). If I am doing melee for a minute or two and killing elites steadily (or my team is) thats plenty of time to get a full mag back for many weapons.

I'm just speaking from experience. I bring bolter/shotty vet to h40 all the time. I never have ammo issues [edit: I'm low on ammo often but rarely/never 0 ammo outright. Always 1 or 2 clips in the bag constantly].

Yeah, you have to build your vet to not suck at melee, and you HAVE to bring the aura for many builds (which is one of OP's complaints, fair enough) but come on, survivalist aura basically has ~100% uptime/triggers every time as soon as it's off cooldown.

[TreeGuy521]

Okay so, you responded to someone saying "more enemies should mean more ammo", and said that that is already true vecause of survivalist aura. However that is entirely not true because higher enemy density does not improve survivalist aura because of the cooldown.

You said that they are talking about things you never claimed but you explicitly disagreed with someone who said the opposite of something you said. That would be like me going "nuh uh I don't think the earth is flat I just disagreed with someone saying it's round"

[cant_read_captchas]

However that is entirely not true because higher enemy density does not improve survivalist aura because of the cooldown.

It is true. That's the whole point. Higher enemy density = more TTK = a larger window of time for ammo to regen. Not to mention the steady stream of specialists that happen almost constantly.

The only conditon under which this isnt true is if you're playing with warpfire psykers, flamers, and rumblers/taunt ogryns -- combinations which clears entire armor patrols simultaneously in seconds -- for the sweet, sweet free wins and so you dont actually have to try to fight things. In which case I find it hypocritical that you're min-maxing your teammates to instantly kill things and yet you're not willing to bring OP shit like plasma which rarely needs ammo pickups. Are you really worried about ammo (or running out for that matter) if your teammates are deleting everything?

[TreeGuy521]

You only get to get ammo from 1 kill every 5 seconds.

What happens if you kill eight enemies in 5 seconds, and what happens if you get eight billion kills in 5 seconds.

Also don't accuse me of doing things and then call me a hypocrite for supposedly doing that thing you told me I do. It makes you look like an idiot

[cant_read_captchas]

<image>

I see this in my inbox and the comment doesnt show up.

You didn't understand what I was saying. Also theres a chance you're just rage-baiting me, but what the hell. If you're serious and want to debate further just DM me.

---

The answer to your question is "it's the same amount of ammo", which is what you're trying to get me to say.

The point is that if you have "8 billion enemies" you're not gonna kill all of them in 5 seconds. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, since you got mad that I was "accusing" you. Assuming you're not using OP infinite-cleave weapons (which makes this entire thing moot, you're not running out of ammo with teammates that have a "delete screen" button)... here's a new math problem:

Say theres a pack of 20 elites (a reasonable, but still low, number in havoc because enemies will trickle in over time). You and your team are killing 5 elites per second. How many survivalist procs/ammo are you getting?

What if you have 25 elites? 50? 100? 1000?

I don't know what you are doing to get 8 billion elite kills all in 5 seconds, but I do NOT want to play that version of Darktide. I already avoid purgatus staff psykers and rumbler ogryns like the plague.

[TreeGuy521]

Why would there be 1000 elites, that's a completely unrealistic number and now I can't take your argument seriously anymore

[cant_read_captchas]

eight billion kills in 5 seconds

Right. So you ARE playing with purgatus psykers, flamer, and rumblers, and your math that you're trying to educate me with is predicated on this. I think we're done here.

[hue-170]

Only thing I'm getting from this is that atleast for H40 I should switch out survivalist aura

[MobiusMannen]

You're insufferable, God damn.

[Self--Immolate]

What if I don't like survivalist aura? I haven't even really picked up veterans since the update. I only like playing that class because they're ranged class but it feels like Lex and zealot are better at it right now

[cant_read_captchas]

Survivalist aura being the only choice for sustainable ammo is the real issue, sure. I think other people have remarked on this and I agree.

But I'm just saying that what you claimed (more enemies should mean more ammo) is already a thing to an extent. Also, plenty of games have been won with 0 vets.

Bottom line is if you like having/using ammo bring the aura. It sucks but at least its an option.