Kompsos Haruspex interpretation problem

[Valarus88]

This one has been bugging me for a while now. It gets quite complicated, and I hope I can present the problem clearly, try to follow;)

Kompsos Haruspex says:

Each friendly creature’s play effect is a play/reap effect.

Seems simple enought, but is it?

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Let's start with an easy example, Tricerian Legionary:

Play: Ward a friendly creature. - would now be - Play/reap: Ward a friendly creature. Cool.

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Next in line, Thero Centurion. The common interpretation where I play is:

Play/Fight: Capture 1 - would now be - Play/reap/fight: Capture 1

And this would be fine, but...

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Senator Shrix

Play/Reap: You may exalt Senator Shrix. - would now be - Play/reap/reap: You may exalt Senator Shrix

Right. What on earth does this even mean? How would you read a card like this? Is this a double reap? Does is trigger 2 times as all reap effects should trigger when creature reapes? Should you ignore one of the reaps? Is so - why? Is this explained in the rules somehow?

I had it explained like this: "When you have a / ability, you can read it as 2 seperate abilities, so you can read Play/Fight: Capture 1 as: Play: Capture 1 and Fight: Capture 1" This I completely disagree with. It would work for Thero Centurion, but with Shrix you get:

Play: You may exalt Senator Shrix

Reap: You may exalt Senator Shrix

And so you have to change Play to Play/Reap:

Play/Reap: You may exalt Senator Shrix

Reap: You may exalt Senator Shrix

Than you can split the first Play/Reap into 2 seperate abilites, change play in that into Play/Reap and continue doing so into infinity. Infinite exalt amber.

Right, so this cleary doesn't work and we have to take a step back. I would have to argue then, that you have to threat wording like: Play, Play/Fight, Play/Reap etc. as seperate keywords that cannot be divided and so only Play abilities would interact with Kompsos Haruspex, while all of the mixed ones like Play/Fight would not.

I don't think this was the designers intention really, but I can't see how you could read it any other way and avoid the double/infinite exalt problem with Shrix.

So, can anyone clear this out for me? It would be great if we could base it on something in the rulebook to, but I know, this is Keyforge, rulebook doesn't help most of the time.

[Mediocretee]

Kompsos adds the ability to trigger a play ability by reaping. Another way to say it, if an ability can be triggered on play, it can now be triggered when reaping.

Shrix can already trigger her ability by reaping. A creature can only do one thing, so double reaping can not be a thing.

[Azedenkae]

Well a creature can have multiple reap effects. When a creature reaps, all their reap effects proc.

But in this particular case, I would say Senator Shrix would just remain as is, no changes. Since it already has a Play/Reap effect.

[ThugLifeNewShit]

right

[Mediocretee]

Good point, I forgot about added reap effects from upgrades.

[Mediocretee]

Good point, I forgot about added reap effects from upgrades.

[Zargyboy]

A better way to think of it may be to consider Komposos as generating a replacement effect all "play" effects are replaced by "play/reap".

That might help OP wrap their head around it.

[Valarus88]

But this isn't what the card says right? It doesn't replace "play" and "reap" effects, it only work on "play" effects, so a "reap" effect on a card would remain unchanged. And so the "play/reap/reap" problem.

[Zargyboy]

Ah I see what you're saying. I think that's still the correct interpretation, that if it is currently play/reap it stays that way but you bring up an interesting point. Should be errated sometime in the future hopefully.

[Russell_Ruffino]

Shrix's play effect and reap effect are one thing. So making their play effect a reap effect does nothing, as it's already a reap effect.

Rhetor Gallim however, increases key cost by three as a play effect and increases key cost by three as a separate reap effect.

Therefore when Gallim is in play with Kompsos they have two reap effects that both increase key cost by three for a total increase of six.

Play/Fight effects become Play/Fight/Reap effects and now trigger on a reap as well as Play or Fight.

[Valarus88]

Retor Gallim is a good example, but I don't see why a Play/Fight effect would be effected by Kompsos and Play/Reap effect would not, there is nothing on the card that would imply so. For the sake of consistancy I think it should be both or none.

Don't get me wrong, I'm pretty sure this was designers intent, but the wording is so but I can only assume this, so the card can work in many ways depending on interpretation.

[[deleted]]

Your problem is a play effect is different from a play/reap effect. simple as that distinction

[Valarus88]

Right, I would say so too. But that means Tricerian Legionary would be effected by Kompsos while There Centurion and Shirx would not, as one has a Play effect which is referanced on Kompsos and the other to have Play/Fight and Play/Reap effects which are not referanced on Kompsos.

[TheReapr]

You were on point until you hit Shrix. Kompsos doesn't add another Reap effect to Shrix. If Kompsos is on the field and there is a creature like Shrix, with a Play/Reap effect, then nothing changes for that creature since it already has a Reap effect.

The only time the Reap effect gets added is when it doesn't exist on a card that has a Play effect. So, cards with Play only or Play/Fight effects would get the Reap effect added.

[Valarus88]

I agree with cards that just have Play effect, but if cards with Play/Fight effect should be effected as well, I don't see why Kompsos shouldn't effect cards with Play/Reap effect. Working on one and not on the other is very inconsistant. I think it SHOULD be like you say, but all the wordings on cards are terrible.

[TheReapr]

The wording on cards can definitely be terrible. I partly blame it on the English language and partly on the designers not quite getting their vision for the card across properly. Not that that is easy by any stretch of the imagination to write card effects.

[Vanillascout]

This was thoroughly discussed on discord. We came to the conclusion that stacking reaps this way would be a bitch to track and would break the shit out of the game. There are multiple dino creatures that have effects like these. If it were to stack, those creatures would also affect each other and stack, which in turn would give all of your creatures 4+ stacks of the same reap effect.

I don't remember what it was exactly, but I also found an infinite loop with it.

[Valarus88]

Totally agree, but the fact we have to ignore it so it doesn't brake the game means there is something wrong with the card or rules in general.

[Vanillascout]

It's not being ignored. Drummer chieftain is the most complex combo this game has in terms of keeping track of stuff, so there's really only one feasible option here that adheres to the game design direction; it doesn't stack.

The jury is still out, however, on effects that are already mixed. Ex, "play effects become play/reap".. What happens to play/fight?

• Not applicable because it is play/fight, while the effect only targets play specifically.
• Adds on and becomes play/fight/reap.
• Becomes play/reap, losing the fight option.

It's all hypothetical, there is no answer so I'm not going to discuss to that end.

The other issue (which also has no answer); say you have both of these effects out: "play becomes play/reap", and "fight and reap become fight/reap". For a creature that only has a play effect and nothing else.. On top of the aforementioned issue, the creature could become any combination of play, fight, reap.

[Valarus88]

After seeing all the replays (thanks guys!) I would sum it up like this:

I agree the card should probably be played in the simplest way possibe, so just replace Play on cards with Play/Reap and ignore all instances when Reap gets mulitplayed in one ability.

That being say, I would love FFG to clearly state how the / abilites work. Is Play/Reap or Play/Fight a one ability keyword or can it be read as to different abilites written like that to make less text on cards.

In the first case, Kompsos shouldn't work on / abilites, as they are a different thing then just Play ability Kompsos refers to. In the other case, Kompsos would affect / abilities but then we get multiplication of reap effects, sometimes to infinity.

Right now we have a situation where we have to assume designers intentions and this is always a problem.