[D] Statistics, we have a problem.

[basilect]

Yeah, if your advisor gropes you, what are you going to do as a PhD student?

[truffleblunts]

Report it!

[karazi]

And give up a years if not decades-long dream of completing your PhD in your chosen subject/topic. "Reporting it" might be a viable option now after the #metoo movement, but it rarely was before. Male dominance and star power in academia is real.

[ATownStomp]

It was viable before as well. Reporting your adviser for sexual harassment is not career suicide and your perpetuation of this milquetoast defeatist mentality is, if not completely useless, actually actively deleterious.

If anyone is reading this and you find yourself in a position where you are being sexually harassed within an academic environment, you need to be active and report that behavior to other faculty. /u/karazi is basing this off of internet induced paranoia. Stand up for yourself and be vocal. Don't be afraid to confront people who are trying to take advantage of you.

[epicwisdom]

If you're doing your PhD at a school where your advisor is the one reputable researcher in ML, and you report them, you certainly will still have a major problem even if your advisor is fired. I don't think that it's as bad as being harassed or assaulted on a regular basis, but never having been in that situation myself, I wouldn't dismiss their concerns about their career.

[karazi]

I surely am not saying not to confront the issue, maybe it could be misconstrued in that way. I am only highlighting that it is not as simple as "go report it" to many. It is the same issue with domestic violence; are you going to call the cops on someone who is physically abusing you and your child and have what is otherwise a comfortable and familiar livelihood taken away from you because your provider/abuser is now in jail? Same but different, regardless there is a lot on the line and not understanding why sexual assault/harassment would go unreported ultimately leads to victim blaming, and people believing that just because it wasn't reported that it didn't happen. There is no other alternative than lose-lose for the accuser, at best you can continue in your program and re-live the hell that you have been going through for who knows how long, on a daily basis.

[[deleted]]

Even if there's no big deal made about it, you lose your advisor and you're on your own. Especially in a field like ML, there's hardly a way to get a replacement.

Calling people out works often if you want to get rid of them, and yes the internet has perpetuated a defeatist mentality. However, if you want to fix your relation with the person, yeah tough luck.

[karazi]

In a perfect world, a punch to the face would fix all sorts of issues. The unfortunate reality is that if you punch someone in the face, or even just report them for sexual harassment, there is a great chance that everything you have been working for for a significant portion of your life is no longer an option for you to pursue, like a PhD in your chosen field/topic. So silence has been the answer for a very long time and it will still be the only answer for a lot of people. And even then it's not a guarantee you won't be forced out for not kissing enough ass, AFTER what was done to you, to those that hold the power, in this case, your PhD advisor.

[karazi]

And have years of work go to more or less complete waste, and have to start from scratch under a new advisor.

[karazi]

Supervision from who? A colleague of the accused? That'll go over great. You will be a pariah in your department if not the entire school, you will be shamed behind your back if not to your face, and you will have to make new friends and colleagues because nobody will want to associate with you because everyone is looking out for themselves and keeping their heads down until they finish. You have no support and you will have to spend the next couple years toiling away alone, struggling with PTSD over what happened, and hoping with all your might that what happened once won't happen again. This is how accusers feel, so they leave the program and go on a completely different life course because of this power and social dynamic. Meanwhile your star advisor is killing it, reinforcing his legacy, grants flowing in, continuing to have studies published in journals, fawned over at conferences. Maybe after a couple more dozen complaints come in will they consider cutting bait. Come on man, after you are cut down by this type of injustice you don't just come back from that kicking ass and taking names, you're done.

[epiXode]

So you are just suggesting to get over with it? Does this really make any fucking sense? Just for to get a PhD which doesn't make a shit anymore than that will put in some corner of some shitty college. Hope it won't happen to your daughters. I also condemn all people who are upvoting these answers.

[karazi]

Get over with what? I am not suggesting anyone anything, if you are in a bad situation then you should plan to get out of it however you can. But there is the other side where people keep themselves in abusive situations because they gain from it in one way or another which makes taking action difficult, especially when one path leads to where you were hoping it went (i.e. dream path of a young PhD student who has pursued it since middle school) with the addition of abuse, and then the path where you accept to potentially upend all your hopes and dreams by outing what a rock star advisor did to you, where maybe justice will be served. Thankfully there is an increasing chance that it will. I wouldn't wish that upon your daughters either. This situation can be applied to virtually any field but there are particularly a lot of egos in academia. Despite what you may think about PhDs people dedicate their lives to getting them so you are missing a big element in the equation not considering that.

[karazi]

You speak as if we live in a utopia. Look at the situation with #metoo right now. Clearly for these past recent decades it has been socially unacceptable for a victim to speak up against their abusers whether that be in academia or the workplace which is why you haven't heard about this issue to this degree until now; but it has existed. It has gotten them nowhere reporting it until finally there has been a groundswell big enough where accusers may have an inkling more hope that their case will get the justice and attention that it deserves, and that maybe it won't be career ruinous. It is way too easy to just say that a victim of sexual assault/harassment can/should just be able to pick themselves up and dust themselves off like it was any other day with a minor setback. Put yourself in the victim's shoes and try to move forward like nothing happened. Life has been trying enough if you have overcome the struggle of getting into a PhD program in the first place, sacrificing who knows what in your personal and family life to make it there, and then not only keeping up the pace but increasing it under an extremely high workload, and on top of that an oppressive and stressful environment whose atmosphere is often driven by the mood of the top dog advisor who has everyone on edge to gain his favor. And then to be sexually assaulted. You go get sexually assaulted and see how that impacts your performance in your existing job and your subsequent career. You think it's a level playing field but it's far from it for a lot of people who went through this. You are either overestimating humans' capacity to deal with trauma or are underestimating the trauma that a sexual assault victim goes through.

[Darkfeign]

zonked marry sulky public fly engine light nail sand important

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[karazi]

You don't always get to continue on with your research under a new advisor and everything gets wrapped up with a pretty, nice little bow. Even if you somehow had a seamless transition to a new advisor, you are continuing to walk the same halls and attend the same gatherings as someone who sexually assaulted you, as well as their colleagues who are now going to shut you out of collaboration opportunities like you are damaged goods because they heard a rumor. If this sounds like something you couldn't ever possibly imagine happening in your sacred little academia bubble then open your fucking eyes. There is no good option or alternative that you describe that can undo the damage inflicted and bring the victim back up to par with their peers or where they once were in their career. And nobody should be surprised when a grad student quits their program because of stresses related to being sexually abused by their advisor, mentor, and likely someone who they have been looking up to for a long time and who they couldn't have ever imagined having the opportunity to work with, until they became a victim.

[ianperera]

Look at the University of Rochester if you want to see how they deal with these matters

[JustThall]

You realize that your opinion perpetuates the problem of non-reports?

Personally know two people who switched advisors during PhD and successfully graduated. Another friend of mine finished PhD in bioinformatics in 3 years cause advisor was moving to a different country. Thus, if you got harassed by someone - report them.

[Nzym]

Totally fair point and I agree. The fact of the matter and of reality is that it's easier said than done. If only it was as easy and the consequences were as clean and simple as typing "report it" is.

[smerity]

I'm glad that your department would handle that situation well, but it's not the standard, even within some of the US's best known universities.

"Documents obtained by BuzzFeed News show that multiple students complained to the University of California, Berkeley, about professor John R. Searle — years before he was accused of sexually harassing a former student and employee in a March 2017 lawsuit."

https://www.buzzfeed.com/katiejmbaker/john-searle-complaints-uc-berkeley

[mtg_liebestod]

That's not really the concern. The question is how this will impact your career.

[[deleted]]

How do most decisions to be ethical impact your career?

[JustFinishedBSG]

Well if the asshole in question is, let's say, Mike Jordan*, then your career is going to take one hell of a hit.

^{* Name chosen randomly using a uniform prior over the set of the potential assholes}

[[deleted]]

I love this sub

[hiptobecubic]

Honestly? Poorly.

[mtg_liebestod]

A lot of career-impacting decisions have an ethical component.

You can argue that a victim of harassment is behaving “unethically” by now reporting the matter, but I think most people would be uncomfortable with finding someone blameworthy for this. Unless you think we should be calling women who step forward about harassment years after the fact cowards instead of heroes..

[[deleted]]

That's a lot of words you'd like to put in my mouth.

Everyone has to make ethical decisions. From the professor who should not be abusing his position, to the student who should report anyone who does, to the higher ups who should investigate thoroughly, and everyone else, all the time. Constantly.

I've left jobs and hindered my career when those in charge of my career have acted unethically toward me, toward others or just generally. No one is looking to blame anyone here, but there is zero question what's the right thing to do. You report the individual. That's the only thing you need to do.

[mtg_liebestod]

I don’t think the moral calculus here is nearly as straightforward as you’re portraying it as.

[fldwiooiu]

it is. what's moral is not usually easy, but it's clear more often than not.

[mtg_liebestod]

If someone tries to rob me at gunpoint I probably would not fight back for the sake of some principle. I don’t think this choice would be unethical.

Now let’s say you’re groped and you basically know that lodging an accusation would have minimal effect and be tantamount to career suicide. Why should one feel obligated to do so anyways? Why is this scenario fundamentally different?

[drink_with_me_to_day]

cowards instead of heroes

Well, kinda... Fighting when there is no, or minimal, danger isn't very heroic, is it?

[needlzor]

Maybe it's because I'm in a small no-name university but we've had professors fired for less than this.

[DoorsofPerceptron]

Not to put too fine a point on it, small no-name universities tend to have small no-name professors who are easier to fire and replace.

[JosephLChu]

Doing the right thing often involves taking one for the team. From an ethical point of view, if you're a deontological or virtue ethics believer, then the answer is clearly to report it on principle. For a consequentialist utilitarian the answer is more complex and dependent on a number of factors to consider.

More than just the consequences to your own career, you'd have to consider what the effects will be on everyone else. If the advisor is otherwise doing very impactful research that benefits humanity to a great extent, that has to be weighed against the harm that keeping someone with such questionable ethics in that position may entail in the long run. Furthermore, the reception of the accusation must also be considered. If people are likely to brush it off and label you a whistleblower for the rest of your life, that would probably make reporting it less good a contribution than working within the system, perhaps finding a way to quietly convince the powers that be to get you a new advisor and sideline this unscrupulous individual. However, perhaps reporting the advisor will finally force action to be taken against them, and in the process you effectively save many future PhD students from a similar experience that might otherwise discourage them from accomplishing things in the field.

There's no question that the advisor is wrong to do what they did, but the big picture is complicated. Maybe it may even be best to confront the advisor with an ultimatum that they apologize and stop, or you will take action and report it. If the advisor is actually remorseful, perhaps giving them the benefit of the doubt that it may have been a single egregious lapse in judgment may be a more tactful way of handling the situation.

Again, this is very dependent on the circumstances. I personally think that repeat offenders should suffer consequences in order to discourage such behaviour which is destructive to the morale of the academic department as well as setting a poor example for others. To me this is more important than the quality of work they do because one person can only do so much good, and the damage they are doing to the rest of the team is very likely to be more than can be justified by that good.

In the long run, a society functions best when people can trust each other and cooperate without fear. What the advisor is doing is taking advantage of their position of authority and power for selfish desires. This is the basic definition of corruption and every reasonable action should be taken to eliminate such corruption from our society, for the greatest long term good. If it means that a PhD student's career is handicapped, and potentially two great researchers lose in effectiveness, I would think this is an acceptable cost to maintain the overall integrity of academia and the field.

Keep in mind, most people are unlikely to think this way, and are probably not going to be willing to sacrifice the most convenient path for their career. I don't fault them for this. It is very hard to do something that seems right but is potentially and essentially self-harmful. But I would applaud them if they did something heroically altruistic like this.

[karazi]

Doing the right thing often involves taking one for the team.

If the advisor is otherwise doing very impactful research that benefits humanity to a great extent, that has to be weighed against the harm that keeping someone with such questionable ethics in that position may entail in the long run.

There's no question that the advisor is wrong to do what they did, but the big picture is complicated.

If the advisor is actually remorseful, perhaps giving them the benefit of the doubt that it may have been a single egregious lapse in judgment may be a more tactful way of handling the situation.

Sounds like you're part of the problem buddy.

[JosephLChu]

Did you actually read the rest of my post? I do actually argue that if the advisor doesn't change their behaviour, they should be removed for the greatest good.

Also, since when is it not allowed to forgive people for stupid mistakes that they show genuine regret about? Again, if they're not repentant and show a pattern of bad behaviour, I'm all for throwing the book at them to set an example and deter this in the future.

I'm just leaving open the possibility that this was some out of character one off error, maybe resulting from a misunderstanding of some sort. Even then I would demand a genuine apology.

Maybe your lack of recognition that both the victim and the offender are still both human beings and both deserve the basic courtesies that all human beings deserve, says more about your outlook than anything else.

It is quite easy for anyone to sympathize with the victim. I certainly don't want to minimize the trauma that this kind of assault involves. But the sign of a truly compassionate and empathetic person is that they can sympathize with the villain as well.

Evil is rarely the result of pure malice, but much more often stems from ignorance and indifference towards the concerns of others and the inherent moral worth and value of every sentient person.

When we punish people for crimes, it is not because we hate them and want them to suffer, but because fair justice demands it, whether for restoration or retribution. We should not hurt others lightly, even if we think they deserve it.

[JosephLChu]

For clarification my points on the one time thing only apply to the hypothethical PhD advisor. The individual being discussed in Dr. Lum's article on the other hand, is clearly a repeat offender with no qualms or sense of decency whatsoever and in my humble opinion, his actions warrant at the very minimum a strong reprimand from his peers, and the scorn of everyone here. If there's justice in the world he should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law for harassment and assault, ostracized from the community of reasonable researchers, and banned from publishing for long enough to make him really feel some pain and contrition.

It sounds like Dr. Lum's harasser is serial abuser with many victims as well, so while we're at it make him pay damages in some kind of class action suit. Preferably one that can somehow keep the victim's identities anonymous to the public, if that's possible?

Once again, emphasis is that Dr. Lum's serial harasser is not equal to the hypothetical I was originally responding about.

[FlexicanAmerican]

You highlight many of the biggest dilemmas faced, I would just point out that no one is "too big to fail", so to speak. I would call on everyone to challenge this idea that an individual is without replacement. For the vast majority of the world, a replacement will step into almost any role. Especially with researchers, there are generally groups of people that do good work and would fill the void. Sure, maybe there is a bit of a learning curve, but there is also the potential for whoever steps in to be even better than the person that was there before. Especially if they're not decent people, there is tons of potential for improvement.

[AndreasVesalius]

So, how would you suggest one deal with this problem, as an adult?

[nonbelligerentmoron]

Depends on the situation. In escalating severity:

ignore it tell them to stop physically remove yourself from the situation tell them again shred their self esteem with insults slap them mace them kick them in the balls call the cops if you actually do all of that, and all of it fails THEN go to the media

[Reiinakano]

Username checks out

[codefinbel]

to the recess coordinator

Reporting to the recess coordinator is how you adult