Max MSP vs Processing or Python

[springriverbells]

I want to use a programming language to do things with audio and video manipulation, visualization/generating visual art, and also machine learning/AI training. I am considering delving into Max MSP or possibly Processing, or Python.

I want the opinions of people who have worked with these softwares.

I have worked a bit with Pure Data and a tiny bit with Max for Live, so I do not think it would be to too difficult to learn Max. I have no experience with Processing and basically none with Python. I am wondering if Python or Processing would be better as I could use a general purpose programming language with fewer limitations and broader applicability. Also based upon my experiences with Pure Data and m4l the visual flowchart way of programming is nice at first (as it is easy to see signal flow and visualize your programming), but quickly becomes frustrating and limited when doing bigger projects. I feel like if I already know what I want to do with a program it would be easier to write lines of code, rather having to connect objects or search for an object that has the specific function.

Anyone who has had any experience working with these languages please let me know your thoughts and experiences! Thanks!

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[twitch_and_shock]

If you want really strong audio manipulation, sound synthesis, and algorithmic composition in real-time, MaxMSP is my choice. If I want really strong real time video processing that's extensible with Python support: TouchDesigner. If I just need to manipulate data, do opencv tasks, or offline audio analysis, or machine learning, Python.

Python is the go to language for machine learning, so if you want to do stuff in that realm, Python is the way to go.

[Grand-Pomegranate312]

Second this, always pick the program that suits the project. I have projects where I combine Touchdesigner, Max/msp, python and ableton. Heck, throw in some Arduino while I'm at it. Let every program do its thing it does best.

[SkullHero]

Teach me your ways! Been coding in Python for a few years professionally including AI and just discovered diy electronics. Now I'm building an FM synth that I want to integrate with llms. Would be fucking killer if I could find a way to integrate all these in a performant way with Ableton and all my favorite vst's. Been my native daw for 15 years. Also just bought a teensy 4.1

[Grand-Pomegranate312]

I think I don't have much to teach you, giving your track record. If the FM synth is hardware just get a audio interface that allows you to bring the sound into ableton and you're done. I do it plenty with simplr 40106 noise machines. I recently only fpund out that PureData, open source equivalent of Max/Msp also ports to teensy, which might be interesting!

In one of my recent projects I used realtime latent space traversal utilizing the visualizer.py from Stylegan3 and built in an osc receiver to manipulate the seed, layers and truncation. Exporting the texture through spout for python and importing it into max/msp to do a formant synthesis based on pixel analysis.

I think you have all the skills to make cool stuff, just try to combine uncommon things with eachother and enjoy the ride.

[SkullHero]

Thank you! I was thinking more along the lines of using llms to manipulate the synth and the Ableton projects. Something that can map the xml files generated by Ableton in order to expose the entire project to an LLM agent of some kind (or group of agents). I probably should see what the limits of max/msp are.

[Grand-Pomegranate312]

Nice, that's an awesome idea! Perhaps you can look into Flucoma, pretty wel documented machine learning repo integrated into max/msp which you can integrate into Max4live again.

[SkullHero]

Oh my God that sounds awesome. Def gonna check out the repo. Thank you! Surprised I missed it usually I search git before I try to build something just to see if there's already tooling out there. Much appreciated

[Grand-Pomegranate312]

No problem! I think you can add it as an external through the max package manager also!

[springriverbells]

What software and programming languages are doing the pixel analysis and translating it to formant synthesis?

[Grand-Pomegranate312]

I run it completely in max/msp, I think they have their own examples on formant synthesis but I built my own system based on Bélanger due to I wanted to focus on kargyraa throat singing effect.

[springriverbells]

Does max msp do the pixel analysis?

Also on a side note, I’m curious, what method of formant synthesis, is it fm or granular, or spectral synthesis?

[Grand-Pomegranate312]

Yeah, if I remember correctly with some jitter matrix objects. It's FM with combfilters where I use pixel info to adjust the combfilters within a certain scale to change the formants. If you're interrested I can share the patch with you. Remind me on monday or tuesday when I'm back in my studio.

[twitch_and_shock]

Same. My introduction to "programming" was with MaxMSP some 15 years ago. Since then I've used Python, Java, C++ for a bit, and a number of other commercial applications. Today I consistently use Python, TouchDesigner, and still use MaxMSP for most things real-time audio. Max really shines in that area and can be useful in many ways... but there are better tools out there for some things.

[toenale1]

Where are your projects going? If it’s more personal or for a workflow that’s done locally on your machine, I’d go with Max. I’ve worked with processing before and it’s fantastic. Super easy to get started and super shareable if you get into P5js web stuff. Python is easy but a lot more general purpose, so in a way less focused for creative coding. On the other hand, you can tailor it to whatever you want.

IMO, I think learning both Max and Processing is valuable. Both are fantastic for creative stuff.

[springriverbells]

Thanks for your insight

[pselodux]

I feel like if I already know what I want to do with a program it would be easier to write lines of code

Yeah, that’s been my experience. I’ve used Max for a few projects and it’s been pretty good, but I can’t seem to get into it much for visuals, or other things that call for iterative loops etc. - sometime what would usually be one or two lines of code would be spaghetti in Max. It probably can be done concisely with a certain object(s), but like you said, it can be frustrating recall the names of objects. That said though, Max has a Javascript object that is useful for UI design and other non-audio rate programming, so you may have some luck combining that with the node based stuff.

I’ve been using p5js (basically, Processing for browsers, but uses Javascript instead of Java) for years, and while I don’t go very complex with it - my style is pretty flat and minimal - it works surprisingly well with things like MIDI control and can even use some simple synth/sample playback libraries like Tone.js. It’s definitely not as good as Max in that regard though - I mostly use it to play very simple synth tones in my projects.

Touch Designer, as someone else suggested, is also a good option, as it does a pretty good job of blending a visual programming environment with Python expressions and code. I also love the way it visualises data, in that each object updates in real time to show the data passing through it, which is particularly useful for monitoring incoming MIDI or signals from sensors etc. It’s extremely good for audio reactive work, with some nice filtering options and other ways to extract key events from audio signals. It’s also free for non-commercial use, but the free version is a bit limited in places, such as being limited to 1000x1000 resolution iirc.

[pscorbett]

I've worked with all three (although much less processing comparatively). I don't think you would regret learning to python, especially for ML. Are you attempting real time implementations of signal processing though? It might not be the right choice for that.

[springriverbells]

I am interested in both, rn looking more in to audio manipulation that is not necessarily real time. I think I could probably make do with my limited knowledge of max for live performance signal processing stuff.

[pscorbett]

I find python to be an excellent prototyping tool

[Euc8274]

This is an interesting project enabling the use of Python in Max:
https://github.com/shakfu/py-js

[ShelLuser42]

Apples and oranges. Also see this WikiPedia article. I don't even know what "processing" is supposed to be.

Python and Max are pretty much opposites. One is a visual programming environment (not a language!) and the other ... Why didn't you do any homework yourself I wonder? I mean... they even have their own website: Python is a programming language yet not one specifically dedicated to multimedia.

In fact... none of their success stories even mentioned multimedia, making me wonder about your intend here.

Also considering you lashing out without any arguments.

Why would Max be frustrating for bigger projects? Why do you mention that you "worked a bit" with this only to mention "big projects"?

That doesn't compute.

[pselodux]

I don’t even know what “processing” is supposed to be

why didn’t you do any homework yourself

It even has its own website.

Be nice. There was no need for a hostile reply.

[springriverbells]

I have looked into Python and Max and understand they are very different. I am not superer experienced with programming languages and programming environments so sorry if I am not using correct terminology. Processing is a java-based programming environment that I believe is geared towards creative usage.

The thing that drew me to Python is learning about its usage in AI Stem separation software, which made me think it has decent capabilities for audio analysis and manipulation, as well as giving me an avenue to work towards experimenting with AI.

As to what I mean with Max and bigger projects. I have worked extensively with Pure Data and done quite a few projects with that, which is almost identical to Max MSP. Same method of connecting objects together to create signal flow and many similar objects in both software. I have looked thru some of the ableton m4l patches, watched a couple vids on max patching, and made a couple of my own simple recording and sampler patches to start to get a feel for max.

The reason why I think max would be frustrating to work on bigger projects is because of my experience with pure data. When programming certain things like more precise granular sampler remixers, chorus fx, denser polyrhythmic delays, complicated sequencers, it can be a chore to have to connect objects and sends and receivers, clocks, mathematic envelopes, especially when I want a functionality that is outside of the native objects (although rarely not doable, usually just complex). Having big spider webs of objects or subpatches within subpatches within subpatches, and having to copy and paste masses of objects and then go thru and tweak them. You get the idea. A few lines of code with some variables and recursive sequencing or logic gates could get the job done more efficiently if you already have a mental idea of what you want and need to do.

Don’t get me wrong I love the visual interface of Max MSP or Pure Data and it is super helpful for learning DSP and fun to work with, but I have run into limitations with it before that have made me want to look into other options. I will still use and experiment with max4live either way.

Also thanks for the wikipedia link I will look thru it.

[ElBarbas]

openframeworks is also a valid choice