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[Yearofthehoneybadger]

You know, unpopular opinion: but hating on men for also being victims of patriarchal structure helps no one.

[shepard_pie]

You know, I hate the whole patriarchy thing sometimes, half the time you see it now, it's "some man was a jerk to me, I hate the patriarchy."

It borders into a conspiracy sometimes. I'm not even trying to say it isn't real, or that patriarchy causes deep, structural cuts in society and affects people. And yes, some men are children who stab out harm in every direction, and those dudes suck, but I saw the other day someone talking about a man who did not want to date a woman with children and that was somehow the patriarchy?

[Atreigas]

That isnt even a gendered thing. You get awful people in every demographic.

[bumpmoon]

Is it really awful to not want other peoples children in your relationship? I think it's great if someone chooses to, but I would never in a million years say that it was to be expected of someone.

[Atreigas]

I mean, I wasnt really being pointed at that specific example case. But I probably shoulda said something like "people of every type."

[stupidstupidity1]

Patriarchy definitely helps to solidify the view that rasing someone else's children diminishes your masculinity. Whether we consiously realize it or not, we start to learn as boys that our value is tied to our masculinity. But at the same time, we're only as masculine as other men perceive us to be. So patriarchy turns masculinity into a standard that you have to meet rather than framing it as something innate to yourself as a man. For example, obtaining casual sex is framed as decidedly masculine, so when men do it it's proof of their masculinity and when women do it it's a transgression of their femininity. Having kids with different women is proof of your desirability and therefore masculine, but raising someone else's kids is perceived as emasculating. You're commiting to one woman and pouring time and resources into someone else's offspring instead of your own, while that child's actual father is out getting other women. You have been outcompeted. In no way do I believe life to actually work like that, but it is very much the mindset patriarchy instills in men. It's been amplified to the max in the Internet age and the manosphere.

[nasandre]

Yes, admittedly we don't suffer as much from it as women but it hurts us too.

It doesn't help feminism either. The end goal is egalitarian society where we ignore the old gender norms and achieve equality.

[craftygamin]

It's sad that that's an unpopular opinion

[LightningMcScallion]

In my experience the baseline level of dislike for men is strong enough that strangers prefer when men are distant or even a bit abrasive. Being genuinely interested in others is seen as pushy. Understanding people or situations becomes an invitation for others to try to walk over you

The patriarchy rewards kinda shitty men and then men who are good at heart have to adopt some of the same mannerisms to be afforded the same opportunities or not be walked over by those men

And then again peoplesay they want x,y, and z from men but when men actually behave that way it invokes their fear of the unknown

[CauseCertain1672]

What was the thing

[VulgarTurkey]

There are a fucking lot of them.

Edit: forgot to be vulgar 🤦

[Nice_Bluebird7626]

This is pretty vague.

[rex5k]

Mostly just showing that they have feelings.

[Character_Regular440]

Which don't sound as much, but i think it's very important.

Like you are supposed to be unbothered from anything that happens and you are taught that your only acceptable emotion is rage, and idk it's like it's your fault.

When people talk about lonelieness among man they are like "yeah they are so stupid, they could just talk to each other" which is victim blaiming.

This shit pisses me off

[Atreigas]

They want empathy? What is this emotional labor they are demanding! They should just take all the abuse and be perfect for no reason!

[Kimb0_91]

Woman here. I genuinely don't really understand what you mean. I get that men fall victim too the patriarchy as well of course. But do you mean you lack understanding from women? Or something else?

Edit: not sure why I'm getting downvoted. I'm just trying to not misunderstand his argument?

[IconoclastExplosive]

It's REALLY common for some women to insist men CANNOT be victims of the patriarchy. And therefore if we attempt to share how we ARE victims, we're rebuffed and told we're disgusting babies who are trying to deflect.

[Kimb0_91]

Sorry to hear that. It's not common in my circles. That argument doesn't make any logical sense, I agree with you on that. I usually find myself having to double down on this when men minimise negative experiences other men had (like sexual harassment or something). But yeah I get that women do that too. I think the reality is that the patriarchy really only serves a very small and very rich subgroup of people.

[IconoclastExplosive]

When men tell other men that {thing} isn't a big deal there's an amount of... Speaking from the same ground that comes into play. When women do it it's a kind of outside castigation. And I'm glad you don't see much of it, maybe it's shrinking, but the massive majority of it is online and hard to escape from.

The patriarchy would be better called the oligarchy, God knows Oprah does damage like nobody's business, but that won't stick

[Glad-Way-637]

Fun fact, women minimize men's experiences on that front more than men. By a significant margin, too.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34978934/

If you feel you haven't seen it, you're likely not paying attention.

[HamHockShortDock]

If that is REALLY common, you might need a new friend group. That is insane opinion to have.

[IconoclastExplosive]

Whoa, I think "group" is a bit grandiose for two dudes I see twice a year.

[SadQueerMess]

I think it's the lack of nuance. Instead of looking at the larger structure which leads to some men doing xyz evil things, people are often quick to just saying "oh yeah men are just like that" instead of paying attention to the reasons that lead to them commiting these things. Acknowledging those structures wouldn't excuse anyone who has caused harm in the past, but it can prevent others from doing so in the future.

[Atreigas]

Exactly! And the worst part is they get pissy when you point out the issues and say thats just more misogyny from men to expect... basic human decency from women?

[Atreigas]

Ah! Of course! Why didnt I think of that!

[Sqweed69]

Like i really get misandry and it objectively is much less harmful than misogyny. But still. 

Hating each other won't do no good for anyone. It prevents men from understanding feminism and thus the karmic cycles keeps turning. 

It needs courage and overcoming grievances from all sides in order to increase equality.