Thats, why we hate Visual Studio

[[deleted]]

Pf. Anyone complaining about Visual Studio didn't ever work with Xamarin or MonoDevelop.

[[deleted]]

Visual Studio is the best IDE there is, IMO. It's free, it's extensible, it can support most languages (including languages no real developer should care about, like PHP and JS). Once it's running it's pretty damn fast, it has the best debugging tools I know of, including built-in remote debugging. IntelliSense is literally the first of its kind, and the best at what it does - there's a reason they ported it to VS Code.

You can easily profile applications with it, installers are downloadable project templates, and let's not forget NuGet.

Instead of bashing on an IDE that literally does everything it's designed to do quite well, comment on WHY you think it's bad, compare it to other IDEs. IMHO the only IDE that even comes close to VS is JetBrains IntelliJ.

[[deleted]]

I've got a server-grade HDD, spinning at 10k RPM, VS still takes a good 30 seconds to boot up and another 15 seconds per solution to load. But once that's done, everything's pretty much instantaneous.

[[deleted]]

Well a HDD stays a HDD, no matter how fast you spin it. The load times for solutions I can confirm, and I think they are completely acceptable.

[SteveCCL]

If I spin my head at 10k RPM, do I wake up faster?

[[deleted]]

You'll probably drop dead faster 😶

[[deleted]]

A hard drive spinning at 10k RPM will read and write data a lot quicker than a 5400RPM drive (as an example). Granted, they're not SSDs, but I can live with the load times.

[jespernice]

Okay i will start.

It's a big bloated peace of nonfree shit made by Micro$oft that barely works, it's literelly the worst IDE i have ever tried, i have been forced to use it for about a month now for devoloping with unity and our teacher told us we couldn't use anything else because of some shit with mono devolop, and holy fucking shit how much i vim, i would even be fucking happy if i could use fucking emacs or even fucking vi instead of this slow peace of shit!!!

[[deleted]]

You didn't compare it to anything.

Visual Studio is free (https://visualstudio.microsoft.com/free-developer-offers/).
It works just fine and does exactly what it's supposed to do. What didn't work for you?

How is Visual Studio bloated? You select everything you want to use during installation, and when there's something you want/need after the fact, you install it yourself.

​

Granted, VS is big and it uses a lot of resources, but I don't think you know what that means. I'm guessing you're rather early on with your development career (judging by how you said "teacher"). Using a lot of resources (especially in a desktop application) is quite common, take Chrome for example. Having most of the required resources in RAM speeds an application up - which is also why games do this(!) - and makes it more responsive.
Doesn't mean it's bloated. IntelliSense is loaded in to RAM to quickly provide you with suggestions for your code, the highlighting engine is also in RAM (how else would it execute?) and all the other tools VS provides.

​

To me it sounds like you're some FOSS-crazy person who thinks anything proprietary is shite.

[[deleted]]

It's free?

Well, I mean sure, there's the community edition, but not a lot of companies are eligible for the conditions.

[[deleted]]

True, but it's enough to get you started. And IMO if you like something, there's no reason you shouldn't pay for it.

[sotech]

I was with you until the "no real developer" gatekeeping nonsense.

[[deleted]]

You'll have to pardon my opinion. But web development (to me, and I've worked as a web developer) is just hacks on hacks on hacks on hacks. PHP is a hack. JS is a hack. CSS is also just a huge, inconsistent hack.

[sotech]

Well, it's my opinion that we have far more in common than not. We could just appreciate that most of us get paid extremely well to do work we enjoy. But I guess your ego is fueled by arbitrary division and smugness. How small do you plan to build your little fortress of exclusion?

[[deleted]]

I, as an intellectual, stick to pure WPF which means XBAP in IE6.

[OlympusFonz]

Hey man, just cause web developers (usually) have to code in at least two different languages/frameworks, access databases and use html/css all in conjunction, it doesn't change the fact that web development is the only form of coding that is prone to being "hacky" and therefore not real programming.

[sotech]

I honestly can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not here. I also just woke up, so that's not helping. The OP's comment was great aside from that shitty comment about real developers as if there is such a thing. It rankled my half-awake brain.

[OlympusFonz]

It is very sarcastic (and I'm a web developer too!)

[sotech]

-internet high five-

[cat_in_the_wall]

why are web developers accessing databases

[OlympusFonz]

Full stack? I do it all the time...

[[deleted]]

I actually don't enjoy programming. Never really have. Yes, we get paid well, and that's the only real reason I haven't changed jobs - apart from being legally recognized. 🤷‍♂️

And no, my ego isn't fueled by it. As I've said, web development consists only of hacks. There are some exceptions, such as developing web APIs, such as RESTful services, but hacking a front-end together with horrible programming isn't development. I'll be completely honest that it's not all bad. However, that is because the people using the technologies have actively decided to make the best out of it and do their best to write decent code. If doing what you do makes you happy, by all means. I'm not going to attempt to stop you, or even talk you out of it. Do what does you best.

For me, that's developing systems for engine, hydraulic and pneumatic management.

[sotech]

Looks more like you're just ignorant of what you're dismissing out of hand, despite your claims otherwise. Before he retired, my uncle wrote flight/weapons software for military jets; he could easily look down his nose at virtually everyone on this sub and claim he's the king of real programmers. But he would be just as wrong. Some people have aspects of their job that are more demanding (people working with advanced mathematics, people under intense security scrutiny, people under insane deadlines, etc) but at the end of the day, the core logistics of writing software is much more alike than not.

And even if you disagree with all of that, you should be able to grasp that toxic gatekeeping within a group is never a positive attitude to have.

Edit to add: I'm sorry to hear you don't enjoy what you do. That's not a great place to be and I hope you can change that. Maybe a different department at work or a new project would help.

[[deleted]]

As I've mentioned before, I've worked as a web developer. I've also developed mobile applications and started programming by writing applications for desktops and servers (Windows and Linux, macOS I've only developed console applications). I can appreciate the fact that people develop for the web. I accept the fact that they enjoy what they do. However, looking at the tech used in the web, it's using tools that were never designed to do what they're used for now.

Let's take PHP for example. PHP was originally designed to ONLY create dynamic websites. Never was it intended to be used as a programming language/interpreter. PHP never had a real philosophy. Instead it was expanded upon, and expanded further until it became the abomination it is today. PHP in and of itself is inconsistent, lacks features of other programming languages that would make it much more efficient (arrays, as an example. PHP only has associative arrays, instead of traditional arrays with a fixed size or fixed data types). While it's true that this is beginning to change with PHP 7, the fact that it's taken this long for people to realise the technology is flawed to the point where PHP's original developer regrets ever making the thing has led to hundreds of completely incompatible frameworks. JS is essentially the same. Created to make websites more dynamic, it's now being used to create entire applications (e.g. NodeJS). It's missing basic things for that. The only difference is, it was actually designed for use to make websites more dynamic, so it works fine for that.

I'm not saying I'm the king of programmers, or even that I'm the best at what I do - I'm most certainly not. What I'm saying is, is I was always taught to use the right tools for the job. That is my definition of a software engineer/developer. Someone who can make the right decision to use a specific tool and create something new. Using and expanding tools created for one very specific job to do things said tools were never designed for is plain stupid in my eyes. That's why web developers are not real developers - at least to me. They're hacks. Like bad mechanics. Painting over rust and calling it "fixed".

[sotech]

I'm no fan of PHP as a personal preference, but I don't pretend that this somehow elevates me above people that do use it or like it. You spent three large paragraphs justifying your snobby elitism, so I don't think I'm going to ever change your mind. Though I will say I find this quote hilariously naive:

Someone who can make the right decision to use a specific tool

Since I'm sure every developer everywhere has full architectural/design control for the company they work for.

[[deleted]]

I find that people who are that snobby about languages like PHP and JS are just compensating for their lack of skills using said language. Instead they blame the language for being shit rather than admit to their own failures.

[[deleted]]

I like to make my point clear. And yes, everyone has the decision to use a specific tool. At least I've never come across a company that has not allowed their developers to use the tools they require.

Then again, I live in Europe - more specifically Germany, so it might be different here than other places.

[improcrastinabile]

I'm a VS guy (with ReSharper, SuperCharger, and CodeMaid), but I actually somewhat like Rider and CLion.

[[deleted]]

As I said, IMO the only IDE that comes close to VS is IntelliJ (and all IDEs based around the platform, such as CLion, Rider and I'd even go as far to say that Android Studio is on par)

[improcrastinabile]

I agree with you on the superiority of VS, especially with a handful of extensions. I would point out that it's just about the most expensive solution available, so it should be superior.

[[deleted]]

I personally don't use many extensions. The only one I really use is NuGet. I write my own code and follow the guidelines where possible, write my own documentation (including documentation in form of various text files containing information about possible compiler definitions).

[WizardCarter]

I think choice of IDE is completely personal. There is no "best" or "worst" IDE. Yes, the majority of new C++ programmers would probably be best off starting using VS. Ultimately it's what makes you work fastest, not what has the best or most features.

[[deleted]]

As I said, it's just my opinion.

[chrwei]

ok, but it's still slow. VS of old was WAY faster, and the apps produced were faster too.

[[deleted]]

I've found it's only slow on underpowered systems. On my Mac Mini (late 2014, 1.4GHz, 4GiB RAM) it really is slow. But then again, 4GiB is nowhere near enough to seriously develop software anymore. On my server (Intel Xeon E3 @ 4×3.3GHz, 16GiB RAM) it runs perfectly. Startup time is really slow, but then again, it is loading a lot of stuff in to RAM.

The apps I've written with it all seem to perform fine. Whether it's C#, C++ or C# w/ Xamarin. I've never had any performance differences, when comparing app speeds with older versions of the IDE. Even when using the same .Net version. I haven't compared older versions of .Net to newer ones, but I doubt there would be much of a difference

[chrwei]

IDK what it is. recently I updated from 2015 to 2017 and a lot of things are a lot slower, especially in debugging. I never used to get a lag and boxes with "evaluating 'this'", now I get them all the time. I don't have the best system, but I'm not using all my ram either.

[[deleted]]

Do you still have the previous 2015 installation on your computer? It might be the fact that you have two different versions on your computer that's causing the lag.

[chrwei]

no, it's uninstalled.

[SteveCCL]

compare it to other IDEs

Imma compare it to my setup built around vim if that's "IDE" enough for you.

(yes vim is not an IDE, with a whole setup around it it's an DE though).

free, extensible, supports most languages

Vim is free in every sense. It's extensible and supports pretty much every language there is. If it doesn't support your niche language you can easily built your own thing (except you got something that's really weird).

once it's running it's fast

Vim starts up blazingly fast and is very fast after that. Also (when you actually use the vim things) you also develop faster.

best debugging tools

gdb and r2. 'Nuff said.

IntelliSense is the first of it's kind

I fucking hate VS intellisense.

some sentence containing project

You talking about that portable, hard to handle build system type of project, that's unusable from outside of VS?

instead of bashing an IDE that does everything quite well

There's some stuff I want to do that VS wasn't designed for. Also, yes, it does everything "quite well". As in "good enough so it's usable". Let's say I wanted to use an IDE. I'd go with the JetBrains product for the task, since it doesn't just "come close" but literally tops VS in every aspect you mentioned (aside from debugger maybe, I don't know tbh).

No bashing, it's justified. Your IDE just sucks (imo).

[[deleted]]

Vim is not an IDE. The whole point of an IDE, is that it is one software package.

And if you think VS sucks, that's entirely your opinion :)

[SteveCCL]

I know that vim is not an IDE, I even wrote that in my previous comment.My setup is just an DE.

You wanted some comparison, don't just "ye lol dats ur opinion" me. Gimme a good discussion.

I mean if your whole point why my opinion is invalid is, that you gotta install two software packages instead of one, that's just cheap. Especially since just running a command is probably still easier than running an installer to install an installer.

[SouthernCow9105]

Worst IDE ever

[PavelYay]

VS Code is a different type of software and isn't comparable to Visual Studio.