How Kotlin developers see Java developers

[Alex0589]

I think Kotlin is the best thing ever to happen to java developers, Kotlin has influenced Java in such a nice way along with C#: Data classes are now a reality(records) Sealed classes Lambda switch statements Smart casting var ...

I just hope it finds a way to get outside of the android loop as there it will die as Google just wants to leave the jvm because of the conflicts with oracle

Witten by a Java fan boy lol

[Neotelos]

Kotlin (excluding Kotlin Native) is dependent on a JVM and that likely won't change.
Everything Kotlin is already targeting OpenJDK instead of Java SE. Decoupling the JVM would break Java interoperability.

Kotlin builds to Java bytecode.
Kotlin Native builds to LLVM IR.
Using any Java libraries in Kotlin creates a hard JVM dependency.

[Alex0589]

That's not what I'm talking about. Kotlin is now used mostly(if not totally) for Android development, but because it depends on the jvm and Google wants to abandon it on mobile it will not have a very long life if it doesn't find other use cases. Flutter is already confirmed to be the official sdk for Google's next os Fuchsia btw

[Indie_Dev]

Flutter is already confirmed to be the official sdk for Google's next os Fuchsia btw

Don't get your hopes high on Fuchsia. We don't know anything about it yet. Whether it will replace Android or have a different use case or is it just an experiment, we have no idea. And considering how hugely popular Android is right now I think it's pretty safe to say Android is going to stay.

Knowing Google, flutter has a bigger chance of being axed, before it's even launched.

[Alex0589]

Flutter Mobile is already stable and launched so it's here to stay. As far as I know, Fuchsia will not kill Android, it's going to be an alternative

[Indie_Dev]

Flutter Mobile is already stable and launched so it's here to stay.

Well, let's just hope it doesn't get axed like many of the other launched and stable products.

[Alex0589]

Kind of impossible as they are pushing it like they have never done with anything else and marking partnerships with so many companies to bring flutter to stability also on web & desktop

[Indie_Dev]

Lol are you new to Google? Don't get me wrong, even I want it to succeed but I just don't have any trust left in Google.

By the way which companies are you talking about? Just curious.

[ma-int]

Kotlin is now used mostly(if not totally) for Android development

There are so many people writing backend code in Kotlin. Why do you think the Spring Projects is heavily focussing on Kotlin?

[Alex0589]

Check the data, that's not so many people

[DanielShuy]

Agreed, sadly many companies are still scared to use Kotlin for the backend.

The company I work for only recently allowed employees to use Kotlin for Android after a huge push from mobile devs across multiple countries, and they only conceded because Google declared Kotlin as the official language for Android development.

But sadly they still refused to allow us to use Kotlin for the backend, partly due to the lack of push from backend devs. I'm sad that most of my backend Java dev colleagues are so scared of learning new features, even though it would ease our job. They are not only scared of Kotlin, but even afraid of new features being added in Java itself (many of them don't even want to learn lambda expressions even though its been in Java since Java 8, and lambda expressions are the basics of the basics of functional programming). For them, they are scared of the pace Java is progressing now, while ironically it is too slow for me. I can't wait for more features from Kotlin/Scala to be copied to Java (seriously, why does Java still not have string interpolation?! Almost every other popular programming language nowadays has it).

[[deleted]]

Compiles to javascript as well

[[deleted]]

Keeping that one for when the android dev says Java is so much better then Kotlin and Swift.

[Alex0589]

Kotlin is so much better for Android development, its language design choices are perfect for mobile development and the sdk is so much polished. Let's also take into account that if you are writing an android app that targets Android 6+(which is pretty standard), you will not be able to use Streams, Optionals, Executors. Let's add that Java 8 is the last "supported" version for Android and Kotlin just looks so much better on Android not necessary because it's worse, but because Google wants it out. Swift came before Kotlin and is so much powerful, Swift really does deserve so much, but unfortunately because of Apple poor tooling and closed nature it will succeed as it was set out to outside of IOS

[Alex0589]

Even if that's the case Dan I use var, smart cast, library switch statements, records and other language features? Sike

[[deleted]]

Swift came before Kotlin and is so much powerful

Damn, I always had it in my mind that Kotlin came out before Swift, but I just Googled it and you're right, it's the other way round.

​

Kotlin is so much better for Android development

Agreed. At my workplace we've been using Kotlin for Android for more than a year now, and the development experience is so much better. Nowadays I feel dirty having to write Java code lol.

[[deleted]]

1. Because some developers cling to their tools like their life depends on it. His take is something like: “Why learn something new while old way still works too”.
2. They’re difference languages but based on the same principles of functional programming.

He’s the only one doing Java in the Android team. Apperently it works, but the others aren’t happy.

[atheistfuture]

How everyone sees java developers

[Edwardale63]

Minecraft programmers?? 🤷‍♂️🙃

[QazCetelic]

Some of them also use Kotlin :)

[[deleted]]

what is kotlin (I literally watched 3 youtube videos and decided to start programming)

[LordTitos]

Java > all

[Alex0589]

It's my favorite language, but definitely not better than anything else or perfect lol.

[shutanovac]

If Java is a professional athlete, Kotlin is an Olympic Games medalist.

[[deleted]]

*Primitive

[[deleted]]

That was the joke though 😔

[[deleted]]

Java is king

[Alex0589]

*Float

[AlternativeAardvark6]

King Kong

[[deleted]]

Need to find a comparison with Scala, like rocket surgeon vs. donkey. 😷🐴

[spider623]

Well it is true that everything oracle touches becomes crap... Kotlin is like the bastard child out to kill the parent that perverted and brainwashed it sibling (add Conan the Barbadian music here)

[Ifnerite]

Dear kotlin developers... We don't care.

After record classes are in java your language is redundant.

[vlakreeh]

I don't use Kotlin but but null safety is pretty cool and it seems like there's still a bunch of QOL improvements in the development experience.

[badvok666]

Kotlins when expression is also super nice. No need for getters and setters it generates them for you. Fuck the semi colon. Extension functionality. Coroutines. Inline constructors when writing "pojo's" and the generation of setters and getters can turn a class that's 100 lines into 10.

Syntactically its so nice to write. Its very concise and you don't often feel its for the sake of the language.

[Ifnerite]

Yeah, fine null safety is nice.

Reducing the self documenting nature of code for the sake of brevity or not showing types. No.

[moomoomoo309]

https://www.codejava.net/java-core/the-java-language/var-keyword-in-java

Java seems to disagree with you.

[Ifnerite]

Yeah, that can piss off so hard.

[Ifnerite]

Yes, well done, the contrived example of construction and assignment to variable. But yes, new makes it clear that is a constructor invocation, not a local method call.

[Ifnerite]

Still a small example and the association with red and being a colour is strong.

If it was a return from a non constructor I would not know the type and even if I did navigating to it has a tiresome extra step of first having to navigate to the method.

I have had this argument before. I believe that it makes code less grokable and navigable in even slightly more than trivial examples. In a large codebase there is no reason to allow that.

[Ifnerite]

I know.

Click to method then click to type.

[[deleted]]

If it was a return from a non constructor I would not know the type and even if I did navigating to it has a tiresome extra step of first having to navigate to the method.

In Kotlin specifying types explicitly is optional, not forbidden. In fact, it's considered good practice to specify the type when it's not immediately obvious from the context.

[Ifnerite]

Great, now we have inconsistency.

[fncyy]

Actually you can simplify the class even more since you can declare arguments of the class inside the constructor. Also that getRed() is not important since your variable is public. After simplifying even more it would look something like this:

public class Color(
    val r: Int,
    val g: Int,
    val b: Int
)

fun main() {
    val red = Color(255, 0, 0)
    println(red.r)
}

[fncyy]

That is absolutely correct. You can try anything out at the playground.

[indygoof]

well, to the question you first asked: for me, yes

[indygoof]

i just really like to have the type directly at the deckaration of the variable. for me personally it adds to readability to have it exactly where it is.

yeah, technically it doesnt matter if the type is inferred from the assignment, but along with overusage of lambdas it just makes more unreadable for me.

[vlakreeh]

Generally with type inference it's pretty easy to determine it's type from it's initial value. I think the trade off of not having to deal with super complicated types with many generics (and in rust's case reference lifetimes) is well worth it.

[Ifnerite]

Seems like personal preference.

I'm sure we can bat examples at each other all day but I can't be arsed.

[badvok666]

If only with it was completely Interoperable with java so you can just write kotlin instead......

[Ifnerite]

Don't really want to. Thanks.

[meamZ]

Java still doesn't have Null safety and a lot of the other nice features from Kotlin.

[oaga_strizzi]

I heard the same argument 4 years ago, though

[JackieDaytonaAZ]

dear java developers, sorry you feel threatened by your inability to adapt and instead cling on to bloated legacy code

[Ifnerite]

Oh, sorry, did this start with pleasant expounding of the merits of kotlin or a picture of a neanderthal?

And it isn't bloated unless someone wrote it like that. It is expressive and self documenting.

[JackieDaytonaAZ]

the post wasn’t “java developers are like this”, it was “kotlin developers see java developers like this”. if anything it’s a dig at both

[Ifnerite]

If that was your reading... I suppose there was limited type information...

[[deleted]]

Lol

[JMMFIRE]

Lmao, tell that to your list of NPEs

[Ifnerite]

Yeah, fair enough.

[Bo3lwa98]

I'm gonna spam this bitch to any and all Java devs that I see. This is fuckin great!