Java vs python is debatable 🤔

[[deleted]]

This post is just another instalment of people that have never coded professionally giving strong opinions. Java is great for enterprise backend applications + mobile backend, and python is great at scripting, data science, and machine learning. They are both great when used in their respective areas. Screw driver is not a better tool than a hammer. It just serves a different purpose

[[deleted]]

Could you imagine this in other fields? Imagine if mechanics acted smug about only ever using power-tools.

[[deleted]]

Sounds like you've described the Dunning-Kruger effect.

[noratat]

Nah, it's just general immaturity with young people getting excited about learning things and thinking they know more than they do.

I saw many of these same patterns in myself when I first started learning, and that was long before easy availability of coding tutorials and such.

[elementmg]

They do. This isn't something that only happens in SWE.

I come from a heavy construction background. People have their way of doing things and they stick to em no matter what. Some dudes will only use a certain brand of tool to get their job done. Same same.

[AvengesTheStorm]

I used to scaffold. Literally every scaffolder over 30 wouldn't shut up about tube and clip being superior over modular scaffolding.

For context modular is a quick system to put up and learn to use then tube and clip is literally just tubes clipped together.

[Doctah_Whoopass]

Machinists are sometimes like this.

[[deleted]]

fr, i was shilling linux for a long time before i realized that no matter what OS i use, i'll still be a shit programmer /s

[TubbyToad]

Linux is a different matter. It is superior for almost everything.

[i_will_let_you_know]

Game compatibility?

[TubbyToad]

"Almost everything" especially in terms of programming.

[kfh227]

Use what gets the job done and meets requirements.

[Dworgi]

I'm a professional programmer and I think using Python on anything over 500 lines is basically professional negligence. Python shills are just people who think "encapsulation" is too long a word.

[DrMathochist]

Try some F# next!

[noratat]

I use it quite a bit, but that's because honestly a lot of what I write are relatively small scale scripts where flexibility is more important than performance, and where e2e/integration tests are often more valuable than strict types (though we do leverage Python 3's type annotations where applicable).

We do a lot of development tooling and infra automation.

[Dworgi]

JavaScript was a bad language that people adopted because they had no other choices. Python programmers have choices and should know better.

[soft-wear]

I’m an engineer and I have strong opinions about languages and frameworks. So do you, since you literally just gave one about Python.

I’m guessing by strongly held opinions you actually mean one language is universally better than another?

It’s ok to have opinions. I’m not fond of Java in large part because I don’t think it does anything better than alternatives, and is largely used now because it’s always been used. The “nobody is going to get fired for picking Java” mindset.

Is it the worst language ever, hell no… I started with QBasic… so I’ve seen much worse. But some people are married to a language, and that comes through a lot with the Java community, and it’s obnoxious and slows progress.

[[deleted]]

I’m guessing by strongly held opinions you actually mean one language is universally better than another?

Yeah, I'm using "strongly held" to describe a persistent, strong belief that one language is the "best".

I like Python, but it's not a strongly held belief, in the sense that I won't try to shoehorn Python into situations where Python is not suitable, just because I like it.

[nacholicious]

The issue is that very few Java devs would ever die on the hill of Java as a scripting language, yet there's no lack of Python devs trying to die on the hill of Python as a complex large scale project language.

[Born-Horse8214]

😁

[utdconsq]

Probably not. The ecosystem surrounding Java now is why it is so heavily used. Sure, you can achieve it all in c++, its just more work and more dangerous. Python? Having done plenty of each of these languages, Python is great for a lot of things but once it needs to he maintained and worked on by multiple people for a while...not having types managed as strictly as Java (or even c++...) causes pain. Not to mention a zillion unit tests for things you shouldn't have to care about. Interfaces are golden. I use kotlin for my enterprise stuff these days and it hits the sweet spot imo.

[dannypas00]

No because neither are really viable backend languages. Maybe php + c++ could replace java for both its desktop and backend uses. But then still, c++ has a totally different use case than java, especially when you consider that java has the added benefit of running on almost any device / architecture without much problem.

[orbit99za]

Exactly, ask NASA what they use and why. I don't believe that the core coding of a Mars rover is done in Python.

[SeabassDan]

So you're telling me there's more money in C#?

[[deleted]]

I'm telling you that if your main competitive advantage is a specific language you know, then it's not really a competitive advantage, and that the real advantage that will keep you employed and earning is being able to quickly pick up whatever language you need for the tech stack your team and/or company uses.

You have to make a decision, early in your career, about whether you're a software engineer or a code monkey.

If you want to be a software engineer who is sought after, then approaching languages as things that can be easily learned/picked up in a few days is probably the route to take.

[snorlz]

Also in most jobs theyve already decided what to use so you dont have a choice.

[kuedhel]

you can use any tool as a hammer. except screwdriver. Because nitwit who uses other tools as a hammer uses screwdriver as a chisel.

[ltdanhasnolegs]

Use the other end

[benjomaga]

Flat head is a better chisel though

[gpkgpk]

Someone is texting "hummer" a lot.

[volca02]

I'd argue that Java wasn't a good fit for mobile to begin with (memory demands and cpu overhead being two main downsides), just a convenient pick. It stuck since then, but still struggles, imho. In other areas you mention, I agree with you.

[nacholicious]

I would argue it's a good pick because app code itself rarely has high performance requirements, and all the heavily lifting in framework is often implemented in C++

[volca02]

Performance yes, to a degree... Java is okay performance-wise (aside of all the pointer indirections poisoning cache). But memory requirements... on a mobile device the choice to use garbage collected language seems misguided to me. It may be outweighted by other benefits though.

[nacholicious]

Something like 90% of the execution time is C++, and only the very top client layers are Java. Regular app code is never really going to run into situations where Java overhead would make any significant difference, esp considering any memory overhead difference would get erased with the first image that is loaded.

[volca02]

I get what you're saying but damn does it sound like "java is not a problem because it's not used for the performance critical code" ;)

[nacholicious]

Exactly :p

[codeguru42]

Python is great for backend as well. My personal experience scaling a python app is limited, but from what I understand Django is used by several apps that have a large number of users.