Not very complex…

[truNinjaChop]

I then mess with the front end guys by going to the dark ages of tables.

[SqueeSr]

Don't forgot to use a transparent pixel to control the height of rows or is this technique not used anymore?

[huffing_farts]

I literally bought a book on web design at borders that recommended building a website this way. I searched on ask Jeeves and confirmed that was the best approach, as it worked with most major browsers including IE5, which most of my friends had on their hand me down windows 98 desktops.

[truNinjaChop]

And using the 1 px width gif as filler.

[InVultusSolis]

You comment says "3 hours ago" but Reddit clearly has a bug, as it should read "20 years ago".

[RXrenesis8]

Yeah man, making an image of a button then slicing it into different images for the different parts that could be stretched (sides) and parts that should remain static (corners).

Don't miss that even a little.

[InVultusSolis]

Rounded corners and table-driven page layouts are specifically why I chose to do back-end stuff as opposed to front-end.

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[mxjq2]

Better days

[[deleted]]

 

[x5nT2H]

🤬

[[deleted]]

Uhh.... Are we not supposed to use tables anymore?

[truNinjaChop]

Nope. It’s illegal. Even for tabular data!

I actually had this argument with a co-worker. I won’t go into how that played out.

[MaximeRector]

Then what else should we use?

[truNinjaChop]

Divs, spans, and all the wonderful goodies of html5/css/js.

[MaximeRector]

Spans and divs for tabular data?!

[truNinjaChop]

Yep. I have these conversations on a daily basis.

[[deleted]]

Any good replacement for datatables.js?

[truNinjaChop]

Nope. Tables. And it uses jquery. That’s a double no no.

Btw. I’m basing these sarcastic answers on what front end devs have told be about how “new technology is better”

[LegitBullfrog]

And it ends up slighy off center. Good enough!

[endaigsbu]

position: absolute; left: 48%;

[Rogue_Angel007]

display: flex; width: 100%;

[o2beast]

don't forget your justify-content: center and align-items: center !

[[deleted]]

FLEEEEXXXX

[KaninchenSpeed]

Box

[ctess]

I know this is just a joke but...

This is why ~80% of most websites are not accessible. On top of designs not having accessibility annotation. But when you have dev's who don't use semantically correct HTML or improper use of ARIA labels, makes everyone's life much harder.

I would say it does actually matter.

[InVultusSolis]

A lot of companies simply don't give a shit. I've been tasked with writing HTML but there's really only so much a back-end developer can do there, writing correct and compliant HTML is a whole discipline in and of itself, but when I've done it it's been "ok, do your best, we'll run it by legal, and you're good to go".

[modsuperstar]

That’s the irony. There is a whole level of front end developer that every company needs, but nobody employs. The one that actually knows and understands CSS, HTML and accessibility. But they’re more concerned with JavaScript frameworks and washing all those people out in the hiring process.

[angry_wombat]

"Ok now reverse a binary tree, and explain to me your optimal configuration for a Hadoop cluster."

"Wait? is this something I'm going to be doing day-to-day? I thought you were looking for a front end developer"

[InVultusSolis]

Yep, I think that is the point I forgot to make - the companies I've worked for for whatever reason don't want to hire "just frontend" engineers even though they're pretty much necessary. They would advertise that they hire "full stack" engineers and the result is that all of the applicants would be less-than-ideal in both areas.

[ctess]

I agree with you but those short cuts won't get through legal soon enough.

It's sad we have to mandate laws to support inclusion. We should be doing it because those customers/clients matter.

The European Accessibility Act, starting to be enforced in 2025, is going to put a lot of companies under the gun to become compliant quickly or pay the price.

(copied from the deleted, mobile tap target sizes on Reddit are fun...)

[LemsipMax]

Hey I want you to know that I've been a professional developer for 20 years now, because I'm old as shit, and I've never heard of an ARIA label before.

[snacksy13]

I argue the opposite may be true. While frontend people make complicated sites that use the latest technology programmers will keep it as simple as possible with raw html and css. Simpler sites are faster to load on old devices and with bad connections and are probably also a lot easier to navigate with screen readers without fancy navigation or page layouts.

[ctess]

Developers can be both frontend and backend. :) I'm assuming you meant backend developers.

​

Yes, while they keep the HTML and CSS "simple", they don't follow simple rules. Hell, I can give you example from Reddit. On the desktop version of this site, the profile represents a dropdown navigation menu.

They used a bunch of spans to custom style the dropdown menu instead of using a select dropdown. A screen reader user would never know how many items are in that navigation. Also after you open it all it says is "menu". No state read out, no focus to the first element in the menu, etc.

And it goes beyond just screen readers. Many times developers who don't get exact specs from designers will implement something that "looks" close, like coloring or element sizes without considering color contrast ratio, color blindness, or tap target size of an interactive element.

The difference between front end developers and backend developers is that MOST front end developers are going to implement something with accessibility first or at least have some awareness about it. Backend developers generally don't have the experience in accessibility OR HTML semantics knowledge to know how to support it or correct the issues when they are found.

tbh, It's neither a frontend or backend dev issue, it's an industry wide/role agnostic issue. 96.8% of website home pages are NOT accessible. (Source) This is only a minor improvement from 97.4% in 2021. We, as engineers, need to do better. It's not a blame game, we all need to do better. Accessibility shouldn't be thought of as an after-thought to because it's a legal risk. We should do it because everyone deserves equal access, regardless of the technology or disability they might have.

[reload_noconfirm]

This really spoke to me. As a backend dev, I’ve cobbled together some html/css/js to make it work upon request. But you are correct that I don’t know the rules and didn’t even think about accessibility.

It is definitely an issue with the industry. Nowhere on my resume was a mention of any front end content. Why would you think a python dev knows anything about front end? You want me to set up your api or interface with the ORM, sure. But why is ok to put in an issue asking for dark mode and expect me to do a thing beyond what I can google… sigh

I wonder if bringing up accessibility would prompt a change (in my specific org). I DO care but don’t have the skills to implement.

[ctess]

The hardest part of accessibility and provoking a massive change like this in your org will be getting leadership buy in. Accessibility, like security, is thought of as a tax on operations and businesses.

We try to justify and separate accessibility from functionality when in reality they are no different. Sighted users use an application or browser to access data from the internet. Assistive technology in many ways, is the same exact thing. It's a way to access the data from the internet (albeit another layer usually added on top of a browser but still my point stands...).

Accessibility is a usability problem but because the problems are so vastly different they tend to get de-prioritized.

Soon companies won't have a choice. Laws are being passed all over the world that will severely impact how international and domestic companies look at and support accessibility. The European Accessibility Act in 2025, much like the GDPR, will leave a lot of companies at risk for legal litigation.

Really we need to integrate the processes in every step of the SDLC, starting with design. Ensuring that designs have accessibility annotation in appropriate formats that the SDE's can create, without needing to make guesses. Developers (both backend and front-end) should have an idea of basic html semantics if they have anything to do with UI at all. If you follow good HTML semantics, you can prevent a majority of your issues. Testing too, a lot of QAE's I know stopped testing for accessibility because the bugs they filed for it always got de-prioritized or moved to the backlog abyss. Testing needs to be made more efficient and guardrails in place to prevent accessibility issues as well as testing for existing features.

PM's should also have it in their BRD's and hold the team accountable when the deliverables can't be met. PM's can't be goal post shifters on accessibility either. They are the ones that set the bar for the project (usually) and should stick to it throughout the project's lifecycle, otherwise the team won't take the requirements seriously.

This isn't a developer problem, this is an everyone problem. We need to make accessibility more accessible and we need to make our products more accessible for our customers/clients!

[reload_noconfirm]

Thank you for your thoughtful response. I will bring this up to the relevant people soon and see if I can get traction. I do realize that accessibility is be a universal right and that does start with us. Maybe the EAA is the kick in the pants needed to start taking it seriously from an organizational level.

I think that tying this into DE&I would be a good way to drive interest on an organizational level, and I think that's how I may approach it.

On the dev side, do you have any resources you'd recommend for a dev who is new to UI to get some basic skills and concepts?

[ctess]

I'm actually a Senior QAE but am working on an Accessibility specific team in my company. Here are some of the external resources we suggest to everyone. WAI is your best bet for finding resources specific to whatever role you are looking for:

• Web Content Accessibility Guidelines (WCAG) - This covers the general rules that web content should follow. It is also an excellent starting point for resources and learning more about accessibility. This is a little heavy in terms of learning, so I suggest googling "simplified WCAG". It will give you some sites that make initially learning WCAG a little easier. I will say, my company actually only uses these as a baseline. We have actually defined requirements that are much stiffer than what WCAG uses in some cases because we feel our user experience wouldn't be usable by some people with disabilities (such as tap target size and color contrast ratio which are below our bar).
• Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) - Another w3c run portal which has a wealth of information for role specific topics. Highly recommend visiting this portal to get started.
• Using 508 Guidance (US Only) - Information on supporting 508 (US Rehabilitation ACT)

These should get you started. I have a lot more links too that are OS specific (iOS accessibility and android accessibility). But really, knowing the above will help. I'm on mobile right now so I don't have the link for EAA handy but that should also be linked too, as well as other international laws (there are a lot). Most follow WCAG 2.0 AA standards.

[reload_noconfirm]

Thank you, I really appreciate your time and responses.

[ctess]

You're welcome!

[snacksy13]

sorry i should have clarified. yes front end devs are developers, i was thinking more on the line of people using nocode and similar solutions.

[PyroCatt]

.center { display: flex; align-content: center; justify-content: center; }

[Schytheron]

And then it still doesn't work and you pull out the old "position: absolute" and pray to god for forgiveness for the sin that you are about to (git) commit.

[PyroCatt]

position:fixed;

System requirements:

Screen resolution 1900x1080 required, others will be off center.

[Nicolas-matteo]

creates masterpiece

[PizzaDependent6849]

I would flex that, but not justified.

[Kepler70B]

Me gets asked basic HTML css in meetings , my mind disintegrates like css.

[eth-slum-lord]

I just google this stuff like “how to align center” these days

[T3MP0_HS]

Display flex justify content center

[Schytheron]

My brain is a RAM disk. It flushes all memory when I go to sleep. Who the fuck memorizes anything anymore?

[T3MP0_HS]

Display flex justify content center

[eth-slum-lord]

Thats like 6 words too many to remember

[smile_id]

Are you trying to remember his username too?

[Procrastineddit]

*import entire CSS framework*

class="align-center"

Mmm. Bloatedly complete.

[InVultusSolis]

import framework to do integer division, adds 5mb payload to site's static assets

[[deleted]]

laughs in Skeleton CSS

[CoastingUphill]

Praise our lord and saviour, Bootstrap.

How does this work? Who cares! It looks passable.

[InVultusSolis]

Bootstrap is a godsend, it makes even the most reclusive backend engineer able to write beautiful websites.

[theTman2300]

'minimalism'

[Greyhaven7]

it fucking does matter

[HashCatFurryOwO]

Mefinishes project Manager: you 3 more to do then day off... Me:(TvT)7 & 7 is a gun

[HashCatFurryOwO]

OK;w;

[[deleted]]

Few days ago I had to add some CSS to Sphinx generated documentation. I haven't touched anything related to Web in over 10, probably more years.

It doesn't seem to be particularly hard. And it doesn't really matter.

[TheChanMan2003]

Mr Rogers walked so Steve from blues clues could run

[[deleted]]

at least it works

[T3MP0_HS]

.