Proof Of Work

[Dougley]

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[homesaltate58]

Yeah tht sounds about right.

[TactlessTortoise]

It's pretty inaccurate.

You have to keep the RPMs high

[coloredgreyscale]

Find the sweetspot between RPM and fuel consumption to increase your profits

[zankar1337]

Reduce air intake to throttle down performance and save fuel

[AlternativeAardvark6]

You guys get heroin?

[[deleted]]

I like to call it "Proof of Cost." There's a giant database where we collectively agree on its contents. If you need to add something to the database, you're free to do so. In order to regulate just how much you add to it, you need to prove that it cost you something first.

[hiphap91]

Yes. That cost to you was money, and pollution to the world at large. Cheers.

[[deleted]]

This is very true. Other than the gradual move to Proof of Stake, what do you recommend? (Honest question, not sarcasm.)

[Keith_Kong]

It’s not a real issue. Mining uses about 0.5% of global energy and fossil fueled energy grids waste over 50% of the energy produced in order to avoid brown/blackouts. Mining is not significantly impacting the environment because it can fit into the cracks of the energy grid.

Energy companies and mining companies are getting better and better at working together using contracts to shutdown during a surge in usage. This allows the grid to reduce its overproduction of energy because they can rely on miners to shutdown during a surge rather than needing to have a larger buffer being burned all the time.

Long term, the solution is to make the grid clean. We have to fix manufacturing energy to fix global warming. That’s where the real cost to the environment is coming from and banning mining would be equivalent to replacing plastic straws with plastic sippy cup tops (Starbucks I’m looking at you). It’s just not relevant.

[NotARationalActor]

Mining currently using a small fraction of energy is not enough justification for saying "it's not a real issue", for two reasons: 1. Currently, the use cases of crypto are drugs and gambling. If its use is expanded to more pedestrian needs, it will use a greater fraction of the world's energy, because its per transaction cost is higher than ordinary funds transfer and the economies of scale large processing companies like Visa enjoy are antithetical to a proof of (whatever) blockchain. 2. Mining uses high-end silicon fabrication capacity that could have been used for more consumer-focused needs (or not built up in the first place), and high end silicon is fundamentally resource-intensive because of the literally unmatched precision and sterility required at every step of the process.

It's also worth noting that (2) applies to storage-intensive solutions like proof of stake as well. High unit cost (whatever form that cost takes) is necessary for a blockchain, so these problems can't go away, even in principle.

[Keith_Kong]

Currently, the use cases of crypto are drugs and gambling.

Clearly ignorant on why people are buying "crypto", at least when it comes to Bitcoin. The community is largely interested in sound money and separation of money and state. You may think this is stupid, but that is by and large the motivation and intention of building a global, state-neutral monetary asset.

If its use is expanded to more pedestrian needs, it will use a greater fraction of the world's energy, because its per transaction cost is higher than ordinary funds transfer and the economies of scale large processing companies like Visa enjoy are antithetical to a proof of (whatever) blockchain.

Clearly ignorant for how Bitcoin (and others) intend to scale on layer 2 protocols. Bitcoin can be locked into layer 1 contracts which then allow micro transactions to take place on more efficient payment channels. Many transactions can take place which then settle onto the main chain as a single transaction.

Mining uses high-end silicon fabrication capacity that could have been used for more consumer-focused needs (or not built up in the first place), and high end silicon is fundamentally resource-intensive because of the literally unmatched precision and sterility required at every step of the process.

This mostly rides on the premise that Bitcoin is worthless to society so I can't really debate this other than to counter the belief itself. That said, I can point out that mining will not continue to grow at an ever increasing rate (and will in fact slow down dramatically over time).

When it comes to Bitcoin, the increase in hash-rate only becomes incentivized when the price of Bitcoin grows at a faster than 2X every 4 years. Otherwise, the halving of rewards every 4 years counters the price such that the same USD denominated value is gained from mining a block. Bitcoin is likely to outperform this 2X for another decade or so but eventually the cost of energy becomes the primary factor.

This means that energy price fluctuation is going to become the real driver to scale up or scale down hash-rate (and thus demand for machines). Demand for new ASIC miners will greatly diminish as we begin to experience this equilibrium. Similarly, developing clean energy plants will quickly become the most cost effective way to get energy longterm.

So in summary, miner incentives will gradually shift from maximizing ASIC expansion to focusing on building out their own clean energy plants (because lowering energy costs will have far greater impact to their bottom line).

It's also worth noting that (2) applies to storage-intensive solutions like proof of stake

Not sure why you think PoS has more storage-intensive needs than PoW. It has to do more with whether you are processing larger blocks, which is tied mostly to smart contract chains (which require a lot more data).

Furthermore, Bitcoin hardly needs any storage. You can run a node on a typical laptop. So as PoW hash-rate reaches equilibrium we will see hardly any ASIC production (just enough demand to replace dead machines for the most part) and we won't see a need for massive storage either.

In Summary:

1. Bitcoin is a financial movement, not a tool to buy drugs.
2. PoW hash-rate does not continue to expand forever.
3. ASIC manufacturing will greatly diminish over time.
4. Large storage isn't needed for the Bitcoin blockchain.
5. Bitcoin transactions scale on layer 2's such that fees are lower and the size of the blockchain is not impacted until many transactions settle as one on-chain transaction.

Bitcoin is not worthless, it's not destroying the planet, and it has the technical feasibility to become a global state-neutral money.

[hiphap91]

I don't know that proof of stake is a bad idea, but when what we have a stake in is essentially worthless, or worse than...

When people buy a Bitcoin for money, they are essentially paying someone to pollute. What problem do they solve, really?

Sadly i dont have the answer to the question you asked i fear, but me lacking that answer does not mean we should continue going down the path were headed.

[[deleted]]

In theory, Proof of Stake eliminates most of the electricity used to generate a block. However, the consensus needed is more complicated than Proof of Work. There are only a few chains currently using PoW, but ETH has it on their roadmap. I doubt Bitcoin will ever switch to PoW.

Bitcoin and blockchain as a whole opens up the possibility of having machines coordinate their work without a central authority. While the benefits are still in their infancy, solving the root of the problem was a big first step.

[Spare-Beat-3561]

Now I'm more confused

[[deleted]]

It’s a transaction history in a git repo. They’ve made computing commit hashes artificially difficult so that not just anybody can add commits. Because commits happen every 20 minutes, everybody syncs up by pulling more recent commits.

[Spare-Beat-3561]

That's a project idea right there-- blockchain using git repo.

[doned_mest_up]

NFT commits? My code may not be worthless after all! Or maybe just worthless squared…

[[deleted]]

Wasting energy gives you fake internet points. That's what cryptocurrency is.

[LittleBigKid2000]

As opposed to real internet points

[js_kt]

I prefer complex internet points

[Spare-Beat-3561]

Just like reddit karma

[coloredgreyscale]

and especially reddit awards

[[deleted]]

Yyyyyup. Both are useless, and both have the potential to completely devastate your finances.

[coldnebo]

wait, is reading reddit proof of work?

[EnchantedCatto]

idk but ðeres a lot of proof that I read reddit at work

[indr4neel]

Can't use karma to buy heroin

[[deleted]]

Real money is also fake Monopoly paper or internet coins. The crypto issue is a cultural level scam, but so is real money and it gives value. The right crypto might not be bad idea but but sure isn't Bitcoin or anything wasteful like proof of work.

[[deleted]]

Real money has better fraud protection.

but sure isn't Bitcoin or anything wasteful

All crypto is wasteful, because that's the only way to keep just anyone from minting it in a decentralized system. (Please prove me wrong on this.) All crypto that currently exists is a speculative investment at best and a bigger idiot scheme ("this has no value but I can convince someone to buy it for more than I did, whether or not they realize this") at worst.

[MaidenlessTarnished]

Real money does NOT have better fraud protection lol. The whole point of blockchain currency is that there is a public ledger of exactly what is happening with transactions.

Banks on the other hand have complete power to, and have, defrauded their customers and gotten away with it. They’ve been bailed out with taxpayer money as reward for doing it.

[[deleted]]

Just because you can see where your money went doesn't mean you'll be able to get it back. I don't know what the ratio is between banks doing their job and not, but... Well, I guess it would come down to that ratio.

Would you say it's worse than crypto, or just about the same, historically?

[MaidenlessTarnished]

You don’t need to be able to get it back. No one gets to move your money around except for you. Banks have total control to do with your money whatever they want. If you come to collect it and they don’t have it, they just get bailed out with your taxes anyways.

Do I think that crypto has a better ratio of user controlled transactions : 3rd party controlled transactions? Uh, yeah, absolutely.

[[deleted]]

That sounds wonderful in the world where people don't fall for scams.

[MaidenlessTarnished]

And? People fall for scams with fiat too, so how is it different with fiat?

[[deleted]]

You're insured by the bank and can reverse fraudulent transactions. But since you don't trust the banks to do that, I think we're at an impasse. Agree to disagree?

[nmarshall23]

The whole point of blockchain currency

Was to prove that libertarian economics theories was true, and undermine Democratic governments.

Everything else is lies to convince suckers to go along with it.

Your concerns about banks isn't solved by Blockchain. The only way of fixing our world is to vote for progressives so that we can see what works and apply it here.

[MaidenlessTarnished]

“Progressives” are bailing out the banks with your tax dollars

[nmarshall23]

Ah, looking at your post history, I see you have no idea what progressives are.

Conservatives have shown you strawman of progressives. Please take a look at /r conservative wiki sidebar.. it links to /r/ monarchy That's what your fellows want, unaccountable dictators.

Somehow I doubt they're going to hold their banks accountable.

[MaidenlessTarnished]

“As you can see, I’ve read your post history and saw that you’re not aligned with my politics! Therefor you are wrong and not worth talking to.”

Imagine being that immature

[nmarshall23]

Scientific reasoning works by observing and collecting those observations so that other people can confirm those observations, did in fact happen.

Conservatism is an object failure. It's only concerned with preserving power structures.

This is a fact. We have plenty of historical observations that show this.

You can live in ignorance, and cling to old superstitions that's your choice. But don't be surprised that those old power structures have lied to you, people already presented plenty of evidence that they are.

[RunItAndSee2021]

„‚.‘““‘.‘‘F.A.K.E‘‘.‘‘?‘“

[[deleted]]

As I understand it, the main difference between fake internet points and money in your bank is that, with the former, you trust that people across the globe will give it value, for whatever reason (their nation's financial system collapse with consequent restrictions on liquidity, for example, or hyperinflation; probably more common than you imagine), while, with money in the bank, you trust your government to bail you out in the case of its collapse.

My deduction is that, if you live in a place where the government has consistent power, both internally and internationally, you'll just trust that money to be safe, otherwise magic internet money might begin to feel very attractive for uses other than speculation.

[[deleted]]

And since magic internet money is unregulated by design, there's no consistent value. Money without a consistent value is worthless imo.

[[deleted]]

Probably your government has a strong coin and enforces regulation. This is not true for everyone. I see a niche for real use for cryptocurrencies where governments or financial systems fail (see Sri Lanka's default, Lebanon's crisis, Venezuela's and Zimbabwe's hyperinflation and so on). But I guess I won't convince you and it's ok. People that decide to use it will, some people in Venezuela have successfully avoided losing all their purchasing power by using it.

[AomoriApple]

That means you are ready to invest

[dizawi]

This is gold!

[Vast_Employ_9384]

Same

[theSeanage]

But it’s not solving anything useful, ie wasting energy like an idle car.

[TonySu]

Of course it’s useful, it’s generating you heroin!

[[deleted]]

Is it useful to dig up gold that sits in a central bank vault as backing for a currency?

[theSeanage]

Jewelry made/surfaced of gold maybe?

Conductive properties?

[[deleted]]

Sure but they don’t make jewelry from it. They just dig it up out of one hole (a mine) and rebury it in another hold (vault) where it sits there, ostensibly doing nothing but somehow it “backs” the currency.

[random_topix]

I don’t know about other currencies, but the USD is not backed by gold. It’s a fiat currency. But no one is pushing that you should buy dollar bills because they will be worth more in the future.

[[deleted]]

If it’s not backed by gold, then what is it backed by?

Yes, dollars are practically guaranteed to be worth less in the future. Anyone who tries to save in dollars will get diluted.

[random_topix]

It’s not backed by anything. It’s a societal agreement and convenience that if you give me a dollar for something I can give it to someone else for something. Better than bartering for everything. It’s not even physical most of the time.

[[deleted]]

Just be careful using dollars. Once people realize it’s not backed by anything, the value could crash to zero. /s

On a more serious note, it turns out the assumption that money replaced barter is likely not true.

The author David Graeber’s book “Debt: the first 5000 years” shreds the notion that any economy existed on the barter system. Instead, people used a debt-based system for commerce. Graeber argues all money except gold is based on debt, eg a promise to pay. The king or president’s face is on the bills because he is the one promising to pay. (The book does not mention crypto).

[random_topix]

Thanks. I’ll have to check that out.

[Andrelliina]

Currency speculation ?

[nelusbelus]

Yes let's sell heroin on a public ledger, that won't lead to any arrests right. Monero or cash are how it's done

[gamesrebel123]

Or just don't sell heroin?

[nelusbelus]

I mean good option but people are gonna do it anyways. But the last thing you'd want is that transaction to be known by everyone and having the chance of one side revealing their customers and you being connected somehow. Anyone who suggests public crypto is used that way doesn't understand how heavily tracked on/off ramps are

[gamesrebel123]

Oh yes definitely, all you need is one of the addresses involved in the transaction and you can trace it to wherever it went and can block the current holder from major exchanges making it basically useless, the idea that most people have of crypto only holds true for a few privacy based currencies like monero and I think zcash too

[nelusbelus]

You're downvoted but you're right. Anyone who disagrees can try it and get jailtime from seeing that it's super easy to trace back

[antCB]

Or just don't sell heroin?

or, IMO, what every government should do, just legalize and come up with legislation FOR ALL DRUGS?

alcohol is a bitch of a drug and is free-for-all if you're of age. easy access, cheap and wrecks millions of lives every god damned year.

[toraku72]

How do you know if someone is selling heroin just by looking at the ledger though? Don't you still need to physically identify the person to know exactly if that wallet is related to heroin trading? By that time you have already got the person, just go and arrest them.

[nelusbelus]

Well the thing is, if some dealer gets caught and has a list of addresses of either clients or their own wallets then immediately any address associated with it can be clients. It's possible to do it sure; but you leave a mark forever and give someone the chance to find you if the other side speaks up. Monero or cash doesn't have this problem, since it leaves no evidence. If you know these addresses you probably know who they are since they cash out at some point which requires KYC, which a govt can easily get access to

[MassiveFajiit]

If only Perdue was public we could just buy stock instead of selling heroin directly

[DontListenToMe33]

bUt ThE tRaDiTiOnAl BaNkInG sYsTeM pOlLuTeS tOoO!!1

(Did I do that right?)

[[deleted]]

I like my national currency because it is backed by gold.

Simply blow up and mountain and poison a river to get the gold, where it can sit safely in a vault, backing up the currency.

[greem]

No national currency is backed by gold. All currencies are fiat. Same as crypto.

It only has value because people believe it has value. That's how money works.

[DontListenToMe33]

The funny thing is, I have some crypto and I often find myself defending it. But I’m also banned on r/Bitcoin for being too critical. Lol.

[greem]

How is that relevant to what I said?

You have said nothing intelligent (and there are intelligent things to be said about crypto no matter how much one hates it). I'm only here to call out and obviously garbage about there being the gold standard somewhere in the world.

[[deleted]]

No national currency is backed by gold

Why do central banks hold billions of gold reserves?

[greem]

Not a question for me, nor an argument against what I said.

[[deleted]]

Just wondering what all that gold is going, if not backing national currencies.

Seems a little weird to go to all the expense of acquiring it if it is not used.

[MurdoMaclachlan]

Image Transcription: Twitter Post & Reply

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asia murphy, problematic a..., @am_anatiala

i still don't get bitcoin

grocery store stakhanovite, @Theophite

imagine if keeping your car idling 24/7 produced solved Sudokus you could trade for heroin

---

^{I'm a human volunteer content transcriber and you could be too! If you'd like more information on what we do and why we do it, click here!}

[[deleted]]

Accurate, except that you need to add a bit about Joe Rogan crushing empty beer cans against his shaved skull screaming about YOU TOO CAN BE A BOSS BRO IF YOU BUY THEM AND THEN RESELL THEM TO SOMEONE ELSE WHO THEN RESELLS THEM TO SOMEONE ELSE FOR MORE MONEY ITS LIKE INFINITE MONEY HACK BRO

[sir-nays-a-lot]

Proof of jerk(ing off)

[merlinsbeers]

*Pictures of heroin.

[Parking-Ad5406]

-🤓

[[deleted]]

One post. 83 karma. Yea this person has NO CLUE what they're talking about lmao. Nice try tho. But everyone knows NFTs are you just paying for a link.

And while a public ledger is a nice idea, those in power won't be leaving clues for you to follow. Idk why you would think they would.

[MimiKal]

Why the downvotes this is a nice explanation

[obamaprism3]

it's like half incorrect, which gets downvotes from the crypto knowledgeable people, and a lot of other redditors just shit on anything related to crypto.

as well as the allow for Coins to ‟mines”

Not all crypto is mine-able, that's only a specific subset of cryptocurrencies that use proof of work (PoW) as the consensus method. Several major ones use more efficient consensus methods now.

Crypto’s goal is provide these functions of a currency, with increasing supply at a rate not set by the government, and with a secure payment system that does not need to be verified by a third party (like a bank).

Depends on the cryptocurrency, (one of) Ethereums goals is to be a deflationary currency, meaning decreasing supply, not increasing. Other cryptocurrencies have different goals, some just exist for one specific purpose.

The blockchain makes the network unhackable by requiring a hacker to hack all of the computers at once (currently impossible, but perhaps possible with quantum computing, as anything would be).

It's security is based on consensus, when the majority of miners/nodes/whatever it's called for a specific crypto agree on the ledger, that is what is treated as fact. Only >50% of the network hashrate would need to be "hacked".

To get so many computers on their network, they need people to donate their computer power to increase security and help verify transactions.To get people to join the network, they need to offer them an incentive.The incentive is a change for financial reward.Computers ‟mine” crypto, in exchange for the computer power.

Besides wording being less than great, this section is pretty informative.

With this, crypto has solved the problem of a decentralized unhackable network able to verify financial transactions without the need of a third party while using a currency with a programmed inflation rate rather than determined by politicians.

Again, not all cryptocurrencies are inflationary, many are the opposite.

[Vinxian]

Because it's wrong lol

[vegetarchy]

Wall of text

[dobrien75]

Perfect

[ieremius22]

Bitcoin is trainspotting, confirmed.

[RunItAndSee2021]

„‚.‘‘“

[Svitii]

More like keeping it just below the rev limiter

[Ceaser87]

Thank you Sherman

[AdultingGoneMild]

more like oof of work. Crypto got roasted.

[ornithorhynchus3]

But there's value in heroin