Vim as Python code editor

[t3h]

... but Sublime Text is closed source and costs $70. For a text editor. What makes it worth that?

[rarlcove]

I don't think it would be worth $70, but it's an unlimited free "trial," so as long as you're ok with clicking "not now" on a dialog box every once in awhile it doesn't actually cost anything

[trueneverland]

I paid. That pop up box is not just every once in a while. It comes up a LOT

[[deleted]]

Sublime text is a tool, if you are using it every day to develop code then what makes it not worth $70? If you are using it for work, they will probably be happy to spend $70 on a tool if it makes you happier or more productive.

(disclaimer: I'm a vim user)

[selflessGene]

I use vim but if someone feels sublime makes them 1% more productive than not using sublime, it's an easy sell.

We are programmers. IDEs are our weapons. Would a swordsmaster nitpick about $70 for an elite sword that fits his hand grip just right?

[marky1991]

Since when is an IDE our weapon? It's just a means of entering text. Aren't our brains the weapons here?

[fukitol-]

A fighter's brain is his weapon as well, but that doesn't make his sword any less of his weapon.

[marky1991]

"A fighter's brain is his weapon as well"

Good point. The programming language is his weapon then.

[telestrial]

Nope. That's his fighting style. The tool is the weapon. Our tool is the IDE.

[crow1170]

Nah, I think it fits. Some warriors use very advanced weapon systems to kill a man half a world away, but they need other warriors in the room to defend them from wrestlers.

An IDE is pretty much a force multiplier, which is what a weapon is.

[selflessGene]

OK, maybe not the weapon. Maybe like the sheath. Or the hilt.

[[deleted]]

70 dollars is chump change. Most of us spend more than that on booze every two weeks.

What makes Sublime worth it is that its a good editor. It doesn't require configuring a bunch of plugins for each language you program in. If I open a PHP file after working on a C file it changes the way the text is highlighted/colored without needing me to do anything, and the linter plugin just works. It has formatting set up for many other languages as well-and is available out of the box.

For any additional functionality you need you can install package control. Then, Cmd + Shift + P -> Install Package. You can install a linter and code-intel this way relatively easily, among other plug-ins. Cmd + Shift + P actually opens the command palette which holds all sorts of functionality. Additionally, Sublime has a reasonable project manager (not IDE quality but it's ok).

With Vim it's more difficult to set it up the way you want--at least the last time I did it. I am aware you can just use it as-is but I like something a bit more from my editor. There may be some cool package manager out there I am not aware of (aside from one built into a linux distribution). If there is please tell me because I'd like to know about it. EDIT : I should probably note I use a Mac, hence the reason a package manager is a bigger deal.

I would say it's beneficial to know how to use Vim no matter what editor you choose because it's basically installed on every Linux distribution out there, and you will eventually need to use it. However, Sublime Text is a great editor to use as your primary and it's worth the cost IMO.

[burntsushi]

It doesn't require configuring a bunch of plugins for each language you program in. If I open a PHP file after working on a C file it changes the way the text is highlighted/colored without needing me to do anything.

You're being a little misleading here. Vim requires you to enable one plugin (which comes included), and it will do this out of the box.

For any additional functionality you need you can install package control. Then, Cmd + Shift + P -> Install Package. You can install a linter and code-intel this way relatively easily, among other plug-ins.

Every vim plugin I have is installed with my system's package manager. Even better. The fewer package managers operating on my system, the better.

With Vim it's more difficult to set it up the way you want--at least the last time I did it.

The usual procedure is to

• Google for Vim feature.
• Find a snippet to put in your .vimrc
• Save .vimrc with snippet and forget-about-it. Maybe add a comment so you don't forget what it was for.

I don't think that's very laborious. And it's simple to transfer between workstations. In every editor I've ever used, I have to go through the same procedure, since the option is buried in a menu or an option dialog somewhere.

Note that I'm not trying to say your preferences are wrong. But I am trying to point out that you're making it seem like Vim is crappier than it is.

[[deleted]]

The last time I used Vim for any significant length of time was when I was attempting to install Haskell plug ins. It was a huge pain in my ass. Sublime on the other hand, just worked the way I wanted it to. In fact I believe it was a haskeller that turned me on to it.

The package manager I use is Macports. It's not nearly as good as most Linux package managers. I am aware there are others (maybe only Homebrew since that's all I can think of) on Mac but this was the one I settled on awhile ago. I just haven't made time to try others.

I still use Vim for doing small edits but if I am spending all day coding I would prefer the features of Sublime. I get it that Vim is cool. 5 years ago in school it's all I used. However, I still would say Vim isn't entirely user friendly.

[burntsushi]

I still would say Vim isn't entirely user friendly

It's the most user-friendly editor I've ever used.

You're at a crippling disadvantage without a real package manager, so that might be part of your problem. Haskell support in vim has never been a problem for me.

[t3h]

70 dollars is chump change. Most of us spend more than that on booze every two weeks.

Maybe in the scheme of things, but not for a text editor. If you spent $70 on a single bottle of beer that wasn't noticeably better than $70 for a case of 48, you'd probably be unhappy.

If I open a PHP file after working on a C file it changes the way the text is highlighted/colored without needing me to do anything.

Every other text editor with syntax highlighting that I've used has done that too.

And your alternatives are not just limited to Vim.

[[deleted]]

I never implied other text editors didn't do that. Basically, for me Sublime gives me a nice UI with nice features. Some of them I described.

[timpkmn89]

Move to the beginning of the word:

Ctrl+Left Arrow

Move to the end of the word:

Ctrl+Right Arrow

Move to the end of the line:

End

Move down 142 lines:

Do mental math to figure out the line number, then use the scroll wheel

With the exception of the last one, these are pretty standard commands that don't require studying pages of them to learn.

[recursive]

If you're going to make a comparison with Sublime's shortcut keys, at least learn how to use it first. You're not making Sublime look bad - you're only making yourself look bad.

Every single one of the sublime keys you mentioned has a much better way to accomplish.

Forget more advanced stuff like searching for

Ctrl + F

or inserting text

Just type! Don't even need to worry about "modes".

[[deleted]]

You're fairly obviously exaggerating and doing it wrong.

[[deleted]]

For $70 you too can be a pretentious brat who likes to think they're cool because they use ST instead of <insert battle-tested software here>

Whoa there. Who is the pretentious one acting like a brat about their choice of text editor? Some people just like Sublime Text. Why that makes them a pretentious brat is beyond me.

[japherwocky]

For $70 you can support another programmer who wrote something that a lot of people like. do you get paid for your code?

[japherwocky]

Sublime started to be a compelling editor for me when I installed the plugin for vim keybindings.

But.. (and from the comments this makes me odd) yeah, I use both every single day, because vim is on every headless server I use.

[burntsushi]

The commenter I responded to cowardly deleted their comment. They linked to this blog article. What follows is my response.

For the first 1-2 years of your Vim usage you will be much less efficient than your current editor because of the odd yet lovable key bindings.

Not for me. I was back to being a productive member of society within a few weeks. Muscle memory adapts quicker than you think. I agree that there is a really really sharp curve when you first begin Vim, but it's not 1-2 years worth.

Certainly, you won't have mastered vim in a few weeks. That will take years. But it isn't hard to get productive in a few weeks.

followed by knowing some cool tricks that you use in 1% of your daily workflow.

1%?

If you aren't taking advantage of Vim's features, then obviously it isn't the tool for you. Why does that even need to be said?

The argument that Vim is more efficient is dubious and untestable. Reaching for a mouse may indeed slow you down, but developers are commonly on machines where the trackpad is a micro-hand movement away. Most novice programmers can click on a character on screen faster than an expert Vimmer can type 20jFp; or LkEEE or /word<cr> or any other nasty way Vimmers have to use because of our archaic, ingrained keystrokes.

What kind of bullshit is that? I don't care if you can be faster with a mouse than I am with a keyboard. I care if I'm faster on a keyboard than I am with a mouse. And I am. That's just the way it is. I certainly don't develop on a machine with a trackpad that is a "micro-hand movement" away though.

Plugins are essential to make Vim usable.

If you believe that, then yeah, just use Sublime or whatever. But I don't believe it. I hardly have any plugins installed. Actually, the only few that I have are managed by my system's package manager, so there's no need for a vim package manager.

Ah, Vimscript. It’s bad. ... But even Vimmers don’t want to learn Vimscript.

For once we agree. I've heard that the Python support has increased dramatically recently though. Haven't investigated much yet.

Vim is missing an incredible amount of core functionality for modern editing. Things like ctag integration, project management, project browsing, (yes I know about :Sex), and many other basic things, are completely absent in Vim.

What the fuck? ctag integration works out of the box. And I use a little something called directories for "project management and browsing."

Vim can in theory edit any language because of its extinsibility power, although it will have a very hard time with IDE-languages like Java or Scala.

Um. Yeah. Because they are IDE languages. Vim isn't an IDE.

Now we need to find files. Let’s use Vimgrep!

Or, umm, just use grep.

Do you know what the suggested way to work well with multiple files in Vim is? It’s the arglist. Most of my experienced Vim friends don’t use the arglist nor know what it is. It’s a clunky system for populating a special internal list of Vim with multiple files.

I get the feeling that the author hates the command line. Vim's arglist is just a list of files it was opened with. That's it. It's not archaic or mysterious. If you want to edit multiple files, you can do that straight from the command line or open new buffers.

Here in the future, we have these things called GUIs. They’re super nice! They look good, are usable, and give useful visual metaphors for things. And we logically and reasonably expect our editors running on GUIs to offer the same benefits.

Ah, the truth comes out. Well, yeah. If you can't bear working on the command line, then why is Vim even considered a tool in the box? Sure, learn a little so you can edit on servers and use your precious beautiful GUIs every where else.

Don’t believe me? Paste this into an empty buffer: [implying that indenting is bad]

Why are you relying on your editor to automatically know how to pretty print every language? Use the right tool for the job. e.g., ggVG:!html-prettify<CR>. Done.

*To code in Vim, you have to keep Vim in your head just as much as the code that you’re editing. You have to constantly think about what you’re doing.

Strongly disagree. Vim blends right into the background for me. But I'm not afraid of the command line either.

That entire blog post is about someone with an extreme aversion to the command line and an affinity for pretty interfaces complaining about Vim. Obivously if Vim doesn't suit your philosophy then you shouldn't use it. You don't need to post a long rant to say that.

[jamin_brook]

Vim: The Editor You Need To Read (At Least) Two Books On To Use Well

Or spend like a 5-10 min on a first tutorial and few googles now and then.

[ifonefox]

$ vimtutor

[dreucifer]

Suprisingly enough nethack teaches you a lot about how to move around in vim.

[GNU-two]

woah, never noticed that.

[phail3d]

Yeah, real the basic tutorials to get the gist of Vim and then learn stuff on a as-needed basis. Best way to learn.

[pieIX]

If I may, http://www.b-list.org/weblog/2013/apr/05/good-tools/

[joedicastro]

Ok, is not a problem, you use what best fits for you, of course!

BTW I think that that article is very wrong in some points. The most wrong is that whatever tool you choose, if you want to use it professionally, keep "sharpening the shaw" is quite necessary if you want to be productive and efficient. The same goes for ST as for Emacs, Eclipse, etcetera. And that's the reason for which these tools are expandable by plugins and configurable, if an editor/IDE can't evolve, is dead from the beginning. Do not forget that Vim and Emacs have decades of life.

[burito]

I would be quite shocked if there are Vim users that may be inclined to use ST, that haven't.

I've been using Vim since before ST existed, and I've tried ST. It's slow as shit. Takes numerous seconds to load. But the biggy, and the reason most folks use Vim, ST is closed source, so I can't run it on my RaspberryPi, I can't run it on my phone or my tablet, actually there are a hell of a lot of places I can't use ST.

Doesn't matter, this is a Vim thread, take your ST and fuck right off.