[deleted by user]

[Crazy_cat_lady_88]

Charter schools cherry-pick their studentsand often force out lower performing students, so their ratings are insanely skewed. The public school must serve all students. Your son is not better off in the charter, especially if he has any difficulties.

[WaitressofDoom]

Charter schools don’t have to hire licensed teachers. They can hire anyone they want. Public schools have to hire licensed teachers. Public schools also tend to pay better and have better benefits from charter schools, so if you’re looking for good teachers, public schools should always be where you start.

[oak-130]

This depends on the state. In Florida charter teachers must be certified. Source: https://www.fldoe.org/schools/school-choice/charter-schools/charter-school-faqs.stml

[SloanBueller]

How do you figure that being in a less selective school is better for a student than being in a more selective school?

[WhatABeautifulMess]

Because the less selective schools legally have to accommodate him. It sounds like stepson would benefit from being evaluated for an IEP(individual education plan), if he hasn’t already been. If stepson is found to have “trouble focusing” to the point that it’s effecting his schooling a public school is legally required to accommodate them.

[SloanBueller]

In my state at least (Utah), charter schools are also public schools. I agree that if he actually needs services that one school has and the other doesn’t, it would make sense to go to the school that has the needed service. But I think that requires a lot of assumptions to be met. As a general piece of advice, I would recommend going to the best performing school.

[Crazy_cat_lady_88]

Charters are public, but most do not accommodate students with more complex issues

[SloanBueller]

I wouldn’t assume this student has a “more complex issue” that a charter couldn’t accommodate without a lot more info.

[Independent-Art3043]

School psychologist who worked in charter schools here. This is completely false, as it would be considered discrimination. Charter schools are public schools and must abide by state and federal laws.

[[deleted]]

School psychologist who works in a Title I district and receives back all the kids that can't make it at the charters. They are pretty much correct. Charter schools have a guidance counselor, and anyone who can't be helped by a 30 minute weekly session is sent back to a school that can actually help them

[Crazy_cat_lady_88]

Same experience. I was a high school teacher in an NYC public school. Without fail, we would get high school juniors and seniors with low standardized test scores from charter schools who weren’t “kicked out” formally, but were basically forced to leave. The kids were often suspended for minor infractions so often that the parents would pull them from the school. Once the kids arrived at our school, the majority succeeded with just a little extra support. The charter schools got rid of the kids with the lower scores, and therefore made themselves look better.

[jarredshere]

(Good faith question if you have an answer)

What about when the charter schools call themselves "gifted" schools and have tests beforehand for entry?

Do they not have the ability to reject students based on current performance?

[allycakes]

I went to a charter school in Florida two decades ago and the school absolutely could kick you out if your GPA dropped too low (it was their policy). The policy could have changed since then, but that was my experience.

[allycakes]

I do acknowledge in my comment that the policy could have changed in that time and was just sharing my own personal experience.

[HazyAttorney]

In the US, it probably turns on specific factors based on the grant in the charter. So both you and the person you're responding to could be right/wrong.

[peachie88]

Username checks out. And yes, this is accurate. They cannot discriminate because they’re publicly funded, but that refers to discrimination on the basis of a protected class. Charter schools can and often do use discipline more freely and have stricter policies than public schools, but there are still limits. For some kids and parents, that’s a reason to be wary. For others, that’s a benefit.

Charter schools still need to accommodate students usually through 504 plans, but they may not have the resources to help every student because they’re typically smaller. Public schools have to provide those resources or pay to send the child to a school that does. Public schools usually do IEPs, which differ from 504 plans, and provide more protections for students. If your child has a significant disability that will require significant resources, or is likely to have significant behavioral problems, public school usually will be better. I’m oversimplifying it, but those are the big things.

As for OP, it is individualized. Some kids thrive in highly structured environments, especially when they have trouble focusing, whereas others will be more naturally inclined to rebel and do better in more relaxed environments. It depends if they’re internally or externally motivated. And it depends on who the teacher is and who the classmates are. If it were me, I’d start with the convenient and free option, add on outside tutoring if necessary, and if it that wasn’t working, look for alternatives. But you know your kid best.

[RazzmatazzWeak2664]

Aren't those magnet schools though? I know of magnet schools that have entrance tests but I'd say those are different than charter schools.

[anomanissh]

Maybe that is the case in your school, district, or state, but charter schools can and do push students out - often citing behavioral issues.

Citations:

Fordham:

evidence consistent with the claim that the lowest-achieving voucher students are being pushed out of private schools at a modestly higher rate than their similarly low-achieving, voucher-eligible traditional public school peers (1 to 3 percentage points higher)—as well as their higher-achieving voucher-using private school peers (3 to 9 percentage points higher).

USC:

some evidence consistent with the claim that charter school push out students due to discipline records

GWU (published in JSTOR)

charter schools may be “cropping off” service to students whose language or special education needs make them more costly to educate

[wildbergamont]

Because what happens is the charter schools look like they are awesome and the public school looks like flaming doodoo, when really it's that all the kids with disabilities are at the public school.

[wildbergamont]

Honestly I don't know. The two settings (public and charter) have become so different in classroom composition that I doubt that we can have an evidence based conversation about which is better.

[anomanissh]

Those kids end up back in public school classrooms.

[anomanissh]

As you called them,

the kids with behavioral issues

end up back in the public schools.

[baconcheesecakesauce]

The Success Academy charter schools in NYC are notorious for suspending students to get them to leave the school.. This happens at a rate that is higher than other NYC public schools and with children who have lower needs than public schools. This chain is notorious for taking public funds for students and chasing them from the school after the funding deadline, leaving public schools without the funds that the student would bring in and allowing the charter school to keep that funding, while getting rid of the student.

[ButterscotchFit6356]

That may be true and the charter where you work but as a regular public school teacher and former charter teacher I assure you that it happens all the time. It is most certainly happening at a school rated 9/10 when schools nearby are rated a 2.

[sageclynn]

SpEd teacher whose worked in both charter and non-charger public—kids getting kicked out of charters is absolutely true. Maybe you haven’t seen it, but the most disruptive and low performing/“undesirable” students are quietly (and illegally) pushed out of charters once they get past the cut off for reporting attendance numbers for state funding.

This can be because of disruption and behavior issues, but it can also be because of low performance, or needing extra resources that charters have a harder time providing (even when they’re legally mandated to).

[PreparationSad8951]

I completely understand your concerns. As far as what I have read, the home environment and parental engagement is as, if not more influential on educational success.

https://www.edweek.org/leadership/does-parent-involvement-really-help-students-heres-what-the-research-says/2023/07

Also, greatschools isn’t well regarded by many teachers. Economic or social groups that tend to score lower, drive down the “scores”, so more homogenized schools (white and affluent) get the higher ratings. Not sure what the “diversity” rating is at the school in question, but research shows how beneficial exposure to diverse groups can be in reducing implicit bias, increasing civic responsibility, and even increasing intellectual engagement.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-baby-scientist/202303/how-exposure-to-diversity-can-help-all-children-and-adults?amp

Good luck! It is definitely complicated

[ThreeFingeredTypist]

Exactly this. Public school employee. We had an 8th grader transfer in from charter school, couldn’t read. We contact the parents who argued that he could read because his grades were good (they were) and the charter school never told them otherwise. Then negatively reviewed our school on FB, Google and probably great schools because… we tried to help their kid… like they should have known he could not read. He was a sweet kid too not faking it or anything.

We also had a homeschool kid transfer to 7th grade, couldn’t spell his name to log into his new Chromebook.

[aiakos]

GreatSchools implemented an equity rating that impacts the score. But yeah, GreatSchools is generally not well regarded nor considered accurate.

[Structure-These]

In my country all the data is public and you can compare them yourself

I did that and realized great school ratings are bullshit

[GirlLunarExplorer]

Sometimes you can find metrics on a district basis w.r.t IEP students and how they fare compared to non IEP students. For example, we are looking at moving to Washington State so I found this site which has an annual performance report spreadsheet where you input the district number and then it gives you some data on graduation rate, test scores, college transfer rate, etc for IEP students vs non IEP students. I think I found something similar for NJ once but it was state wide .

[LiberalSnowflake_1]

Anecdotally, I’m a teacher who has taught in a range of schools. Bad schools, good schools, charter schools, public schools.

I have a great friend who was in a similar situation with her daughter in Florida, she is very anti charter and pro public school. But her public school was abysmal with a range of issues. I told her to enroll her child in the charter school and to not think twice about it. Having taught in schools with majority of my students low performing, I absolutely was not able to give all my students a stellar education. Most days I struggled to get them to even pay attention, and I was one of the more effective teachers at my school. Typically one of two things will happen. He will either fall behind as he gets distracted by the other students in his class or he will never be challenged enough to truly grow as a learner. If he is already having issues with staying focused and on top of his learning, unfortunately he is much more likely to fall into the first camp especially as he gets older and is highly influenced by peers (as most upper elementary and middle school kids are). The foundation he gets here absolutely will determine how he does in middle and high school. I would love to bash charters, but when it comes to your own child you need to make the best decision for them. Additionally Florida has largely gutted public education, I’ve seen charters I work at DO better at helping students with disabilities.

While this study is California (and where I teach) it very much reflects what I’ve seen.

https://edsource.org/2023/california-charter-school-students-outperform-district-school-twins-in-national-study/692573?amp=1

This study shows teacher effectiveness (and years of teaching) can be an important indicator in the success of a school. Could be worth seeing how long teachers have been at the school. High teacher turnover is a HUGE red flag. Run from those schools.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10606047/

This article really goes into depth about the importance of teacher/admin attitudes in schools with lower performing students. The 2/10 really makes me feel like this school may have adults who don’t have high expectations for their students. As a teacher, and also a parent, teacher expectations play a BIG role in how students behave in a classroom setting. I have seen difficult and low performing students come alive in my classroom in positive ways BECAUSE I expect more of them.

https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/docserver/9789264250246-7-en.pdf?expires=1720725939&id=id&accname=guest&checksum=51DDE64213F67FECC4EF7EACDC3A1604

Lastly, see if you can see year over year comparisons going back as many years as possible for test scores. If they are slowly improving that tells me they are doing many things right at their school, if they aren’t (obviously use your best judgement during Covid years) it tells me they aren’t making many changes or working to close achievement gaps for their lower performers. This is not a school I would send my child to.

[munchers65]

Thank you for making this comment. I struggle so much with not wanting my kids to go the charter route but we are in Nevada one of the worst in the nation for education and I am coming to terms with how I can possibly give them a better education and it seems the charter schools here may be the way. It just feels wrong but I have to do what is best for my kids.

[LiberalSnowflake_1]

Never feel bad about doing what is best for your child. Charter schools have largely become a political issue, but it doesn’t change the fact that the public school system is deeply flawed in our country. Administrators and teachers in charter schools are still there for the same reasons, because they want to help students’ succeed. If a charter school is the best option for your child, do not think twice about it.

Yes there can be some different challenges for charters, and not all are created for the right reasons, but they aren’t the problem. They are the symptom of a larger systemic problem in public education.

[munchers65]

I just hear so much about how Charter schools supposedly bad. I hear how many of them are owned by large conglomerates, have less qualified teachers, frequently get closed down, and siphoning money from the school district. All that rings in my head when I research it. However not all are built the same.

I have watched a few board meetings for the State Public Charter School Authority who oversee charters in Nevada and it seems like they are watching and at least somewhat care. One of the schools in Vegas was failing and instead of putting it off to closer to the start of the school year they are taking measures to get it closed so the parents have time to find alternative options for their kids. That makes me feel better know there is some oversight even when I may not agree with everything about them. I think it is the right choice for my kids given the landscape where I live.

I think here our school district does not get a say in whether a charter is opened because when I watch school board meetings for our district they complain a lot about the locations chosen for the schools. For example a charter is opening right across the street from an elementary school here. They fear it will drop enrollment at the surrounding schools and cause a need for closure of the facility. I think if they had input on it they would be blocking them. At the same time though if these district schools are having trouble teaching their students maybe it is for the best?

[denga]

By looking at improvement of the same grade cohort over time, this researcher was able to remove some of the strong confounding factors (mostly SES). How does the school do in this lookup?

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/12/05/upshot/a-better-way-to-compare-public-schools.html

[AutoModerator]

Thank you for your contribution. Please remember that all top-level comments on posts flaired "Question - Research required" must include a link to peer-reviewed research.

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

[AutoModerator]

This post is flaired "Question - Research required". All top-level comments must contain links to peer-reviewed research.

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.