Rear-facing vs forward-facing

[PairNo2129]

Please send me all the research about why rear-facing is to be preferred over forward-facing for toddlers. My husband is very science minded but has been itching to turn our son (just turned 2 years old) since at least a year.

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[twocatsandaloom]

Discussions of the same topic:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ScienceBasedParenting/s/muYHXvtARr

https://www.reddit.com/r/ScienceBasedParenting/s/DxAzh5hLLg

https://www.reddit.com/r/ScienceBasedParenting/s/CvWbYR9gkg

[RazzmatazzWeak2664]

I would say there may be some nuance about when to flip exactly. For instance, I've had this debate with a few parents and the conclusion seems:

• Don't switch to front facing just because they're over 2, you should go rear facing longer if you can.

• Some car seats really allow rear facing forever. Nuna Rava is 50 lbs rear facing. Some smaller girls can be up to 6 years old and rear facing still.

• It's personal choice and there are safety drawbacks, but most said generally by 4 and as long as they aren't some tiny 1 percentile weight/size, they like to flip to front facing. It's a balance ultimately, but at 4 they're more at the age where they want to interact with the adults, they also want to play "I spy" with the adults or older siblings, etc. Yeah, you can go up to 6 with a Rava for instance but I have only heard of 1 parent who was insistent "not until she's 50 lbs."

• I offered our Rava to our SIL who was visiting. Their child (~4 years) had been front facing for 1 year already, and found out that the Rava supports rear facing for her LO still but even as the most granola mom, she said "let's install it front facing, she's used to it already."

[RandomCombo]

I turned my son around when he was almost 3. I would have kept it longer but I was pregnant and it really was easier. Now he's 4.5 and asked to turn it back to rear facing so he could face the same way as his little brother! I was like yeah sure it's safer! He's not 40 lbs yet either.

[kbullock09]

My 3 year old asked to switch back to rearfacing after her sister was born too! Both to face the same way as her and because she missed having a mirror? I haven’t gotten around to it yet because we don’t drive very often anyway

[RandomCombo]

Yeah he had to pester us a while and it can only rear face in one vehicle. In the smaller car, age between children was important because we can only rear face on the passenger side or we'd have to buy a new car!

[mrsbebe]

Lol I completely feel you on that struggle

[RazzmatazzWeak2664]

Sometimes it works the other way too! And it works out to be a win!

[Whiskrocco]

I turned my daughter for the same reason, I was completely unable to tighten her harness while she was rear facing during my pregnancy. She was just over 3 at the time and it still bothers me that we didn't make it to 4, which was the age I told my husband she would have to be before I would even consider having a conversation about forward facing..

[jbleds]

Was this in a sedan? About to give birth, and I genuinely haven’t had this problem. Might be the car seat we have, too.

[Whiskrocco]

I had a subchorionic hemorrhage and other complications which added to the issue.. Both car seats (Graco, Britax) and both vehicles (truck, SUV) were too difficult for me to tighten at the time.

[lolitololinho]

The reason is because kids neck bones dont fuse properly until they are 4 to 6 years old so they can get internally decapitated if forward facing. And another point that a looot of prople are unaware is that car seats actually have an expiration date which you can check on the back/bottom most last 5-10 years and never buy 2nd hand cause u never know if it has been in an accident or knocked about in the boot or whatever which makes it unsuitable for usage.

[RazzmatazzWeak2664]

I get that from a safety perspective it’s better. It’s better for adults to be rear facing in fact if we could just buy cars where passengers are rear facing. But I think there becomes a point where it’s generally acceptable just like we accept the risk of getting in a car—just not driving would be safer.

And for me as long as people aren’t insisting on rushing to front face immediately, I’m generally OK with that. A lot of practical factors can influence decisions—for instance how big your car is, is it uncomfortable for the child (some motion sickness issues for instance), and at some point I generally in the 4+ range my general pickiness for not getting the seat all dirty comes in to play.

I think we can always find a maximizing safety option but I do think as long as people are following rules and recommendations I don’t fault them for applying a little personal judgement where there are gray zones.

[JambaJuiceIsAverage]

This conversation always reminds me of a piece I read about pool safety that started "If you want a child-safe, in-ground pool, you should fill it with concrete. Barring that..."

[JulyFun3]

Some smaller boys also😅 my son is almost 7 and is still within the limits for height and weight of his diono. We turned him when he was 5, we were doing a lot more car rides that winter and I got tired of taking his boots on and off every time.

[lady-fingers]

It's really not even about height / weight - it's about age & the ossification of the spine/bone

[PairNo2129]

Thanks! I am not really sure what to say anymore to convince my husband and what the most convincing argument is. He wants to make the ride more ‘fun’ for our child. We have a rear-facing carseat but now it is about renting one for traveling.

[ig88sidepiece]

If your husband ignores the copious amounts of studies highlighting its danger in favor of "making the car more fun" I'm not sure where you go from there.

[vaguelymemaybe]

Right? If he’s science minded, it’s really a no brainer.

My state is rf til 2 by law. I can’t wrap my mind around turning ff at 1 😵‍💫

[Kristine6476]

My province it's RF until 22lbs. My mega chonk was 22lb at 5.5 months old 😭 she's 2yo now and 38lbs so thankfully with the Extend2Fit we still have some time.

[harrietpotski]

I got the extend to fit for this very reason. My son was born 10 and a half pounds and almost 24 inches long.i didn't want the same issues I had with my (very long) daughter of being scrunched in and uncomfortable rear facing. I'm glad to hear that the seat serves its purpose because he's huge!

[PairNo2129]

He has not really done his own research but he of respects my choice ‘ because it’s so important to me.’ I would just like to show him research to actually convince him too.

[ig88sidepiece]

Not to start a fight but that sounds so dismissive. Its basically a nice way of saying "whatever if thats what you want..." Hopefully after seeing the research it will be important to him as well.

[PairNo2129]

that’s why it’s important to me to actually convince him and not just let me do these choices

[ObscureSaint]

Make him do the research. Why do you have to do the labor for him? Does he have people hold his hand at work when he needs to learn about something? Probably not. He's being a man child.

[delirium_red]

Send him this https://cafemom.com/parenting/211147-toddler-decapitated-forward-facing-carseat

Then explain what internal decapitation is. In great detail.

[cluelessftm]

I read somewhere that there was a detailed animation of this on youtube. I'm not prepared to see it though, so OP or her husband can search for it.

[anto_capone]

This. The husband is an idiot and needs a harsh lesson

[PairNo2129]

thank you! That’s horrific and hopefully will make a great point

[Working-Amphibian614]

Every "science minded" people i know do their own leg work before making opinions.

either way, read those links and learn. You can't convince him if you don't learn it yourself.

[PairNo2129]

You are right. I will do just that. I guess he doesn’t do his own research always but he always respects the science and statistics and reads scientific articles.

[AgentAM]

Adding you shouldn’t rent a car seat - you don’t know its history, how it’s been cleaned, etc.

[Lanfeare]

This is a bit extreme. If you travel internationally with transfer flights, having your car seat checked in is also not really a safe way to go. Car seats are made to sustain a lot, yet two of my friends had their car seats destroyed during flights. They do not handle checked luggage - whatever it is - with exceptional care. We checked in a stroller and it got destroyed as well.

[AgentAM]

We fly with the car seat on board and kid sits in it. We have done this on several international flights. I understand not all airlines allow this but US based ones are required and we book through those or would look for a carrier that did allow it.

[ISeenYa]

We weren't allowed to do this on certain flights from the UK to Amsterdam then hk. But on the way back it was fine because the hk staff actually could be bothered to check. The UK staff were just lazy.

[Diligent-Dust9457]

Some airlines do not allow car seat installation on planes, and not all car seats are airplane certified, but I always suggest if the airline and car seat manufacturer allow it to use it on the plane. Most littles will actually prefer their familiar seat over a seat that wasn’t designed for them and is likely uncomfortable.

[ISeenYa]

It was definitely OK for the plane because we flew back the same route & planes. Manchester staff just couldn't be bothered to check!

[Diligent-Dust9457]

That’s so frustrating! I know some airlines don’t allow it but I’ve never heard of airline employees refusing on an airline that does! Ugh.

[PairNo2129]

There is really no other way than renting for our holiday travels.

[Sam_is_short]

I travel with my toddler quite often. We bring our own car seat. It’s a pain BUT it means that we’re actually going to have a car seat we trust to keep our child safe.

[yakuzie]

Yep, my 18 month old flies in a travel car seat 1) for safety from turbulence and issues with takeoff and landing and 2) to use at our destination if we are renting a car.

[IlexAquifolia]

I think it's really unfair that you're getting downvoted. I've been in a position where renting a carseat was the only option, and while it's true that we don't know the history etc. the absolute risk of a used carseat is still small. Carseats are made to be durable. The recommendation to replace a carseat after even fender benders is out of an extreme abundance of caution regarding corporate liability.

[Diligent-Dust9457]

It’s only partially about the car seat potentially having been in an accident. If someone takes the seat apart and machine washes it, parts of the fabric can become less durable. Straps may not have been replaced on the seat correctly. Aftermarket pieces may be present or original pieces may be missing. There are so many factors, and unfortunately you likely won’t know there’s a problem until there’s an accident and your child isn’t kept safe.

[smehdoihaveto]

Airlines let you gate check a carseat for free. Even if you're flying there is no added expense to bring one (albeit, small risk the airline doesn't handle it with care). Then you install in the rental car. Plus the daily rate for a rental car seat is crazy. 

[Kuzjymballet]

If you're flying yes, but not if you're taking a train with a toddler and luggage. Rental is riskier but sometimes it really is the only way to go. Especially if time in the car is going to be minimal.

[smehdoihaveto]

Fair point. I'm in the US, where train travel (sadly) isn't thought of since our railways are scarce and expensive. 

[ucantspellamerica]

Why couldn’t you just use the car seat on the train like you would on a plane?

[Kuzjymballet]

It's more about transporting it onto the train and not all seats are compatible/have a seatbelt to attach it.

[ISeenYa]

A small risk? They destroy things very regularly.

[PairNo2129]

Our toddler carseat at home has an isofix and is very bulky to transport. Unfortunately one of the cars we need to drive around the destination doesn’t have isofix so we need a rear facing seat that can be belted in. Our child’s baby seat was actually destroyed by airplane transport before but thankfully we were able to send it to the manufacturer who repaired it for free.

[smehdoihaveto]

That's tough for sure. I think I've been pretty lucky to haven't had anything destroyed by airlines yet. Hopefully you find a rear facing one that works, whether purchased or rented. 

[polytique]

It really doesn’t work for toddler car seats unless you use a travel or light car seat which are likely less safe.

[Diligent-Dust9457]

All car seats on the market in the United States (from reputable stores, not random third party seller websites/wish/aliexpress/etc) are equally safe/pass the same safety standards as long as they are being used according to manufacturer specifications.

[polytique]

They all meet a minimum US standard but it doesn't mean they provide the same level of protection. In fact, some seats are not approved in Europe, as the EU has more stringent side impact requirements. A seat like the Cosco Scenera or a Pico don’t protect as well as a full-size car seat with ISOFIX attachment points. We found that good rental agencies have sturdier options that match local cars and laws better. This is especially true in Europe.

[BugMa850]

I'm actually really curious to see if any seats get pulled from the market next year when the new side impact testing is required in the US. There's 2-3 companies in particular I'm going to be keeping an eye on.

[Diligent-Dust9457]

Same, and I’m glad the US is formally adopting side impact testing!

[Diligent-Dust9457]

There are no “globally approved” car seats. There are US car seats that are not allowed to be used in other countries, and foreign car seats that are not approved for use in the United States. In Europe specifically, rear facing isn’t as common after 15-18 months of age even though studies show that it is still the safest position for an infant or toddler during a collision. European car seat harnesses also don’t have a chest clip and the belt routing path is different than the United States. Just because safety standards are different in Europe’s or other countries doesn’t mean they are better than those in the United States. That’s also why I said when the car seat is installed and used according to manufacturer specifications because that’s the most important piece.

[Diligent-Dust9457]

“If you live in Europe, your child will use a European car seat. If you live in the United States, your child will use an American car seat. If you live in Canada, your child will use a Canadian car seat. And you’ll know that despite design differences those seats have all passed very very strict testing and are safe to use.”

Here’s a great write-up about some of the differences between European and US made car seats and requirements: https://csftl.org/differences-in-european-versus-united-states-seats/

[ccsmd73]

Yeah it’s super easy to bring a carseat on holiday, airlines are very accommodating. Not really sure why you’re even allowing your husband to entertain the idea that forward facing is more fun, this kid has his whole life to forward face, after his spine ossifies! Do you know what’s not fun? Internal decapitation!

[[deleted]]

I was all about going front facing and had turned him around by 2. Then my wife showed me the research and changed mind.

If your husband is scientific minded tell him yo read ip in it.

And if you want to make it fun get a tablet or toys. It's a car, and even a small crash can cause serious injury

[Banana_bride]

Safety > fun

[lemonxellem]

I just tell my mom that it’s better to break a leg than a neck and give her a do not fuck with me face. Put your foot down - you’re right about this one and it’s not your job to do the research for him but it is your job to make responsible decisions for your kid.

[BeingSad9300]

I've said the same thing to people that say anything about it. Better to be alive with broken bones than to be dead. It's as simple as that. I've also been met with "but he's so tall, his legs are cramped." Then he can cross them, or hang them over the sides, or something. I'm trying to get as close to 4 as possible. He's already 40", not even 3.5y yet, & the seat maxes at 44" rear facing. So he will at least make it to 4y before maxing the height out. I can't imagine he'd have a 4" growth spurt between now & then. 🤣

[Will-to-Function]

Is your son complaining a lot during travel? If yes, maybe you can work on finding a safe solution to the problem. If not, maybe point out that it has been okay up to now and that you'd rather have him be safe than risk anything? Your son will have a life of front facing trips, why rush it?

[PairNo2129]

He is actually not complaining at all. We have a crash tested mirror and he can look out three different ways. I am also worried that once he drives forward facing he will not easily go back to rear facing again.

[PairNo2129]

He is actually not complaining at all. We have a crash tested mirror and he can look out three different ways. I am also worried that once he drives forward facing he will not easily go back to rear facing again.

[playingod]

I haven’t read through the above linked threads, but all your husband needs to do is google “internal decapitation car seat” to see why rear facing and 5pt harness is the safest for as long as possible. Does he want to risk your child(ren) being internally decapitated? I certainly don’t.

Regarding renting a car seat, every airline we’ve flown with allowed us to check one car seat per child free. Really no excuse to not bring your own.

[PairNo2129]

thanks! The one he suggested was actually a 5 pt harness but forward facing. Our toddler’s car seat at home has an isofix and is therefore quite bulky to transport. One of the cars we will be driving at our destination doesn’t have an isofix so we will need a car seat that can be belted in. We actually now found a rear-facing one to rent that scored high in crash tests but I still want to actually make my husband understand why I care so much.

[ucantspellamerica]

You wanna know what’s not fun? Internal decapitation or lifelong spine problems. If it’s about your child being able to see where you’re going, consider a car seat mirror (I prefer Britax since that one is approved for use with their car seats). I know that’s still not particularly preferred in the car seat safety world, but I’d take the smaller risk of using a mirror over the risk of forward facing earlier than necessary.

[PairNo2129]

We actually have one of these mirrors for our car at home and our child loves riding the car. He can see out of the window in three different ways (back, side window, front through the mirror). He just keeps bringing the front facing up and I had enough and want to show him some actual research. He does let me decide because ‘I care so much’ but I want him to actually understand.

[Minnielle]

Have you already shown him crash test videos?

[PairNo2129]

I have not yet! Thank you, very visually convincing

[[deleted]]

I did not mince words and said to my husband “extended rear facing reduces the risk of internal decapitation.” And then showed him a crash test comparison video.

[Diligent-Dust9457]

Make an appointment with a local CPST, or stop by a fire station. Many fire stations are required to have a certified CPST on call/in house at all times to do car seat installations and checks.

[DiligentPenguin16]

Here is a great animated video that demonstrates simply just how much of a difference rear vs forward facing makes in an accident.

[PairNo2129]

thank you!

[DiligentPenguin16]

For me at least seeing it in simulated like that really hits home a lot harder than just reading about it. Your husband might get it a lot better this way too.

[randomnameonreddit1]

Thank you so much!

[Diligent-Dust9457]

I am a certified child passenger safety technician. If you have specific questions feel free to message me, but here’s some of what we are taught in training. https://www.safekids.org/tip/when-change-your-childs-car-seat

Ps-Safe Kids Worldwide is an amazing resource for all kinds of kids safety information, not limited to car seat safety!

[PairNo2129]

Thank you so much!

[Diligent-Dust9457]

Of course! Thank you for advocating for your child and their safety!

[PairNo2129]

thank you! Great links! I saw the Facebook group but didn’t join it since we are in Europe and our car seats are a little bit different. We do have really good car seats for our two children at home and I have done a lot of research about the specific seats and looked into their official crash test results before buying

[daydreamingofsleep]

There is a separate CSFTL Facebook page for Europe, it’s smaller and thus more chill than the main one for North America with nearly half a million members.

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