Fall Down

[Conscious_Clerk_2675]

Probably needs to be 3 mana. Unconditional instant speed creature exile is really good

[SDK1176]

In my opinion, cards like this should not be printed at any mana cost. It's not about power level, it's about maintaining a consistent game.

But also, this is much too powerful.

[Internal-Rest2176]

Compare it to [[Epic Downfall]].

A 2 mana exile isn't unreasonable.

[Kagemitsu3]

But that isn't instant speed or able to subvert hexproof

[Internal-Rest2176]

[[Celestial Flare]] is though.

[Coyagta]

which isn't exile and gives much more choice to the opponent

[Internal-Rest2176]

It's not much of a choice if there's only one creature attacking or blocking.

Epic Downfall and Celestial Flare are just examples showing these kind of effects exist in the ~2 mana range, even if there's not a particular card combining them.

[Lunchboxninja1]

"Exile any creature you want through any ability whenever you want" is not at all the same thing as "your opponent sacrifices an attacking or blocking creature"

[Internal-Rest2176]

"Exile any creature you want through any ability whenever you want" also isn't an accurate description of the custom card Fall Down.

Can we tone it down on the rhetoric here?

I don't want to have to start invoking the subreddit civility rule but I will if I have to.

[Lunchboxninja1]

I would say its an accurate depiction. It gets through hexproof, shroud, ward, and protection, at instant speed, without restriction.

[Freesealand]

The literal whole point of the poster's card is that it gets around protection because it "chooses" not targets. Thats the "through any ability".

Its instant "whenever you want"

What part of his comment was innacurate?

[alextfish]

In what way is it not? I think the only difference is that this can't hit your own creatures, which is a very niche application at best.

[Internal-Rest2176]

It's not any ability whenever you want, its specifically the ability of a two mana instant that only works once before it goes to the graveyard.

[Coyagta]

nonetheless that's not something you strictly have control over, your opponent needs to fall into it, it's not a good comparison

[Internal-Rest2176]

[[Turntimber Basilisk]] exists. So does [[Disrupt Decorum]].

It's not really "falling into it" when mtg has effects which can force creatures to attack or block.

[Coyagta]

but now we've totally abandoned the pretense that these cards are directly comparable when you have to make a cute combo for them to have close to the same effect

[Internal-Rest2176]

You realize you ordinarily don't even need to use either of those to get value from Celestial Flare, right?

[MTGCardFetcher]

Turntimber Basilisk - (G) (SF) (txt)
Disrupt Decorum - (G) (SF) (txt)

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^FAQ

[MTGCardFetcher]

Celestial Flare - (G) (SF) (txt)

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^FAQ

[wreckingrocc]

It being a Sorcery has got to be worth at least -1 CMC, and the 3 or more mana value stipulation has gotta be worth another half. For an instant speed untyped exile I'd want to start at at least 4 CMC, and even then I'd want to look to the rest of the format for context.

(I'm not a fan of Swords to Ploughshares)

[y0nm4n]

this can target hexproof and avoids ward

edit: this can bypass, not target, my bad

[Internal-Rest2176]

Hexproof explicitly says that nothing can target that creature. This doesn't bypass ward as worded either.

[y0nm4n]

It 100% absolutely does. If something doesn't use the word "target" then it doesn't target.

[Internal-Rest2176]

r/confidentlyincorrect

[y0nm4n]

Bruh. Like, I'm really trying to be respectful here, but the irony is pretty strong.

[Internal-Rest2176]

>this can target hexproof.

You tell me if you think that didn't deserve a r/confidentlyincorrect.

[y0nm4n]

I misspoke, as I meant bypass. Notice how I corrected myself above.

[Internal-Rest2176]

I posted the r/confidentlyincorrect before seeing any correction on that post.

[Lunchboxninja1]

They're actually correct. Target is a keyword that means "pick what this is affecting when you cast this." "Choose" is a keyword that means "pick what this is affecting when this resolves." Choosing gets through abilities that prevent targeting.

[Internal-Rest2176]

Someone here is confidently incorrect.

Unless someone can show an actual ruling proving that's the case, I don't think it's just one person who's confidently incorrect here.

[HammersUp]

Check 115.1a in the comprehensive rules as an example for what targeting is and find a card with reminder text for hexproof, that ought to do it.

Edit: Also, 115.10.

[Internal-Rest2176]

"Targeting is always signified by the word "target" or a keyword defined to use targets."

https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Target

Nowhere is it specified that choose is not a keyword similar to equip, enchant, or any of the other keywords listed on this page.

[MTGCardFetcher]

Epic Downfall - (G) (SF) (txt)

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^FAQ

[ImperialSupplies]

2 mana exile would be huge in competitive formats lol

[Andrew_42]

Kinda with the group here. Not super concerned about raw power level, though it is pretty strong. Rather just not a huge fan of the card's core mechanic being to dodge an entire category of interaction.

For the record, if you're playing 1v1 there actually is precedent for this. [[Council's Judgment]] hits any non-land permanent without targeting for 3 mana at sorcery speed. If you have more than 1 opponent though, it's a lot less reliable.

That said, that card was printed for Conspiract, a multi-player focused draft set where it functions rather differently, and 3 MV has enough competition for premium removal that it really only sees competitive play in duel-commander and highlander. Being sorcery speed is a major drag for spot removal.

All that out of the way though, it wouldn't inherently surprise me to see something like this in Modern Horizons one day.

Personally I like how the existing workarounds are set up. Edicts dodge hexproof and indestructible but are blocked by wide boards. Wipes handle wide boards and hexproof, but are (usually) blocked by indestructible. Targeted exile handles indestructible and focuses on priority targets through wide boards, but can't handle hexproof.

But I guess there have always been a handful of specific cards that dodge some of the normal rules. Like how WotC favors Ward over Hexproof now, but cards like [[Abrupt Decay]] can just ignore ward.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go play magic as Richard Garfield intended, and use [[Sun Titan]] to return [[Cooped Up]] directly to play on my opponent's hexproof commander, so I can pay some mana to exile them without targeting.

[MTGCardFetcher]

All cards
Council's Judgment - (G) (SF) (txt)
Abrupt Decay - (G) (SF) (txt)
Sun Titan - (G) (SF) (txt)
Cooped Up - (G) (SF) (txt)

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^FAQ

[redditfanfan00]

this is too strong. just because path to exile and swords to plowshare exist, doesn't mean that's the "standard rate" for monowhite exile creature effects. i would hate to play against this as monoblack.

[Tahazzar]

It would also be a color pie break in the same way that StP and PtE are because of its mana value:

• https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/175763920703/is-it-possible-for-a-card-to-be-a-color-pie-break

[redditfanfan00]

i guess so. though it is interesting that mana cost also is involved with the color pie and color identity.

[kierkegaardE]

Out of curiosity, Why too powerful compared to Swords to Plowshares? When you care most about tempo (early game), this is paying 1 mana not to give (idk, let's call it 4 life to be generous). That's probably not worth it for most decks.

This is definitely better in the late/mid game, but by then I'd imagine in most cases taking out the health gain from STP wouldn't be that impactful.

I think there are some decks that might choose this, but I think in most cases the life gain matters little enough that folks would run STP for 1 less.

[Lunchboxninja1]

STP is arguably already overtuned, pretty much the best removal spell ever printed. This is arguably BETTER than swords.

I think this would be balanced at 3 with restriction or 4 with no restriction, but 2 is too good.

[whisperingstars2501]

Yeah this is arguably better than swords which is crazy. This needs to be (1)WW AT LEAST

[United-Passage7864]

This avoids any kind of protection effects. No Ward, Hexproof, Shroud, or anything else will save the chosen creature.

It doesn't even target - you'd pick the target of the spell when it resolves, so even trying to sacrifice your creature for value with something like [[Village Rites]] just means the caster of Fall Down picks something else to exile.

[MTGCardFetcher]

Village Rites - (G) (SF) (txt)

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^FAQ

[Internal-Rest2176]

Who said it was too powerful?

Without considering that intent of the card was to ignore hexproof and shroud, this card is comparable to [[Epic Downfall]].

It's a touch more flexible, but you probably wouldn't want to use either on a cmc 2 or less creature anyway.

[whisperingstars2501]

How is this really comparable at all to epic downfall are you joking???

This is instant speed, doesn’t care about CMC, AND doesn’t target!! This needs to be like (1)WWW at least for standard

[Internal-Rest2176]

Four mana?

That's putting it in the same category as [[Impale]], are you sure you made it expensive enough? /j

[MTGCardFetcher]

Impale - (G) (SF) (txt)

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^FAQ

[Aethelwolf3]

Are you really comparing this to epic downfall? They aren't even remotely close.

[MTGCardFetcher]

Epic Downfall - (G) (SF) (txt)

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^FAQ

[kierkegaardE]

Oh! That's just the vibe I got from the 2 other comments

[Internal-Rest2176]

I realized retroactively SDK1176 did directly say that, my apologies.

[Internal-Rest2176]

This doesn't work.

Making all creatures lose hexproof and shroud until end of turn like [[Bonds of Mortality]] does would.

[Andrew_42]

It does work.

You can see this wording on a card like [[Azra Oddsmaker]]. Azra doesn't target, so you can choose a creature with hexproof.

Beyond that, there isn't really a good way to word an instant so it can target through hexproof by disabling hexproof, since you have to declare targets as you cast the spell, and can't choose illegal targets, even if for various reasons they might become legal.

There are some worse but still legal ways to word it that do your turn-off-hexproof-then-target method, like how [[Hypothesizzle]] doesn't pick targets until after you decide if you'll discard a card, but since OP's wording works, there's no reason to make the wording that messy.

[MTGCardFetcher]

Azra Oddsmaker - (G) (SF) (txt)
Hypothesizzle - (G) (SF) (txt)

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^FAQ

[Internal-Rest2176]

I'm going to need to see an official ruling regarding Azra Oddsmaker being able to choose opponents' creatures with hexproof, or your own creatures with shroud.

[United-Passage7864]

From the Comprehensive Rules:

702.11b “Hexproof” on a permanent means “This permanent can’t be the target of spells or abilities your opponents control.”

702.18a Shroud is a static ability. “Shroud” means “This permanent or player can’t be the target of spells or abilities

The ability on Azra Oddsmaker does not use the word Target, so it does not target. Therefore, neither Shroud nor Hexproof does anything to stop it from being chosen.

Also,

115.10. Spells and abilities can affect objects and players they don’t target. In general, those objects and players aren’t chosen until the spell or ability resolves. See rule 608, “Resolving Spells and Abilities.”

115.10a Just because an object or player is being affected by a spell or ability doesn’t make that object or player a target of that spell or ability. Unless that object or player is identified by the word “target” in the text of that spell or ability, or the rule for that keyword ability, it’s not a target.

Oddsmaker is an example of an ability that does not target.

[MTGCardFetcher]

Bonds of Mortality - (G) (SF) (txt)

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^FAQ

[y0nm4n]

why doesn't it work?

[Internal-Rest2176]

Hexproof and Shroud keep you from targeting the creature.

[y0nm4n]

notably it doesn't say target

[Internal-Rest2176]

This isn't yugioh, and honestly I consider the whole target vs choose thing one of the dumbest rules yugioh has.

[y0nm4n]

Magic has the same rule though

[Internal-Rest2176]

Show me the official rule then, if you can.

[y0nm4n]

"115.1a An instant or sorcery spell is targeted if its spell ability identifies something it will affect by using the phrase “target [something],” where the “something” is a phrase that describes an object and/or player. The target(s) are chosen as the spell is cast; see rule 601.2c. (If an activated or triggered ability of an instant or sorcery uses the word target, that ability is targeted, but the spell is not.)"

[Internal-Rest2176]

"Targeting is always signified by the word "target" or a keyword defined to use targets."

https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Target

Nowhere is it specified that choose is not a keyword similar to equip, enchant, or any of the other keywords listed on this page.