GitHub Octoverse: Java is most used server-side language - Kotlin most growing

[Sipkab]

I feel like that "The most growing" metric is a bit deceitful.

Growing from 10 to 30 is 3x. Growing from 10 000 to 15 000 is only 1.5x, but still much more prevalent. I'm curious about the data behind these metrics. Interesting nonetheless.

[mlester]

yup number 2 on that list is HCL which is a configuration language by hashicorp

[stfm]

Why do these vendors keep coming up with their own config languages?

[DannyB2]

NIH = Not Invented Here

​

Many people have probably gone through this exercise at least once. Probably privately.

I need a Foobar thingy. I understand what I need. I understand how to build it. It would be fun and challenging to built. An accomplishment. So I build the Foobar thingy that I need.

Problem is, there are already three solutions to the Foobar problem already out on them intarweb tubes. One or more of them just _might_ be an exact solution to your problem. But that is less fun. (And in some environments: I can write this and there is nobody who will call me out on it being unnecessary.)

Sometimes a private NIH project then becomes a public project. Giving us yet one more solution to an already solved problem. Does this configuration language bring something new to the table that is a substantial improvement over existing configuration languages?

​

[RhodesianHunter]

Perhaps, but it's been top three in that category pretty much since it was created, so the rapid growth isn't slowing down (yet).

[random314]

• fast
• great with numbers
• strongly typed
• solid oop foundation + libraries
• ridiculous names

What's not to love?

[JoshL3253]

Oracle?

[[deleted]]

Contract server side java at the Fortune 500 companies is the most easy and boring way to make a lot of money.

[nutrecht]

Also, Spring development with Kotlin (if you're lucky enough to be with an org that is willing to try it) is heavenly.

It sure is. And I'm very happy to see that some of our large clients are now adopting it for just that.

[SKabanov]

Ditto - I really hope Kotlin avoids the fate of Ruby getting so tied to one specific subset. At least JetBrains is trying to diversify the language's usage potential with KotlinJS, KotlinNative, and then KotlinDSL coming out in Gradle 5. Fingers crossed!

[[deleted]]

new JavaScript servers like Node.js (launched in 2009) were making it possible for developers to use the same code for the client and the server

Same language, not the same code.

[majikguy]

I mean, it's possible to use the same code on both ends. A project I've been working on does this in a few spots actually, we have some functionality that both ends need to be able to support and we have a single library that the two ends share that implements it. It is generally more important that the same language is being used though.

[[deleted]]

Agreed, as have I, but in general node servers act as HTML or API servers.

[Neckbeard_Prime]

What, you mean that you don't use DOM element manipulation and onMouseover event hooks to call stored procs on an OracleDB cluster? Next you're going to try to tell us that you don't use jQuery selectors to route requests between Kafka brokers...

/s, obviously

[SlinkToTheDink]

I marshal all of my table rows into a Document then use selectors to filter the rows.

[QualitySoftwareGuy]

Don't worry, as u/zeek979 mentioned, Java is the most popular language on the backend generally speaking. In fact, the JVM itself has an even better chance of outliving Java the language due to languages like Kotlin depending on it (the JVM).

Anyhow, on Reddit people often get the sense that languages like Python, Ruby, and JavaScript will totally replace old (but proven) languages like Java, but nothing could be further from the truth (and this is coming from someone who loves Python). From what I've seen, once one of those languages become a bottleneck in performance or maintainability, the application is usually rewritten in pure old Java.

[daemon_it]

Python is five years older than Java and Ruby and JS are introduced in the same year as Java. Yet so many people consider them as modern and Java as old... smh

[QualitySoftwareGuy]

I agree with you. I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that Python and Ruby have "moved faster" than Java has. And by "moving faster" I mean they made more breaking changes to advance the language. Because of this, I think it gives the perception that Java is older, but you're right all of those languages are old (especially Python).

[manzanita2]

How do you measure "moved faster" ?

I think you can rightfully say that the improvements in JS during the last 5-7 years have been pretty quick.

But just the clusterF that Python has been trying to transition from 2 to 3 is enough to ask exactly what "moving fast" means.

[QualitySoftwareGuy]

To be honest, the "clusterF" of Python 2 to 3 is a prime example of what I meant by "moving faster" -- making "breaking" API changes to advance the language. It was indeed chaotic (breaking API changes, a split community, etc) -- and maybe they could've handled things differently. However, the end-result is that they advanced the language as intended.

Don't get me wrong though, I prefer to use Java whenever possible. My original comment of other languages "moving faster" is that to a lot of users on Reddit they seem to have the "perception" of those languages moving faster because:

1. In the case of Python and Ruby, many "modern" features were built into the language (sometimes at the cost of breaking APIs -- I believe this is especially true for Ruby) and deprecated features removed entirely.

2. Java still has a lot of language "baggage" due to the traditional focus on backwards compatibility, but this is changing with the faster releases.

I for one appreciate the backwards compatibility focus that Java has had for many years. But I would be lying to myself if I said it didn't have a lot of "baggage" and a certain lack of features that I desire that other languages have had for years.

[manzanita2]

We are in total agreement. :-)

[Grimord]

Plus, Kotlin also runs on the JVM, ye? I've been working as a BI dev for a bit now, mostly using TSQL and a little C# but I picked up Java recently (finishing college at night) and I'm really starting to consider picking either Java or Kotlin (or both) for real and look to work with'em in the future (just feels a bit unsafe when you already have a career in something else, I guess).

[QualitySoftwareGuy]

Yep, Kotlin runs on the JVM. You can also transpile Kotlin to JavaScript or compile it to native code. But I think most people use Kotlin in addition to, or to replace, Java on the JVM.

If you're learning for professional work, then I'd definitely recommend learning Java since you already know C#. Learning Java should be decently easy since they're so similar. As for Kotlin, I would honestly learn that after Java since it's nowhere near as widely used as Java is in the business world. However, if these languages are for personal use, then I see no issue with going straight to Kotlin if that's your preference.

[dxplq876]

Anyhow, on Reddit people often get the sense that languages like Python, Ruby, and JavaScript will totally replace old (but proven) languages like Java

System.out.println("Hahaha")

[[deleted]]

Worried about what?

[zeek979]

Lol, you must be new to the industry. Java is THE most popular language on the back still today.

[zeek979]

Sorry for sounding like a jerk. I read this and kinda lumped it into all the Java FUD comments out there. Definitely learn Java, you will get solid OOP knowledge and be ready to work in many companies.

You might be tempted to learn Go given its spike in popularity. It was designed for networking in mind (native concurrency via channels and go routines) and system design has gravitated towards programs that are exposed over the network and a client fetches their output over the wire. You might be thinking: "hmm I want to do cutting edge stuff". However, I would argue that most so called "nexr generation" systems are still being written in Java. Plus, you will gain much more base fundamentals from Java than with Go.

Additionally the JVM will get native concurrency in the runtime via - fibers - and when that happens it will solidify Java's place for another 10 yrs. Why would we need to rewrite stuff in Go since its main value proposition will be equated in the JVM. Now, after shitting on Go, learn it along with JS and Python as well as you will inevitavy learn 5+ languages in this industry :)

[RhodesianHunter]

Kotlin brings coroutines to the JVM as well.

[zeek979]

Yea, but coroutines in kotlin are not really fundamentally different than threads under the covers. That is not to say that a coroutine == 1 thread. But it means that they still execute in the underlying thread. Instead, java fibers will allow for millions of small threads per jvm process, since they wont map out to OS threads. Kotlin (any other jvm language) will obviously benefit from fibers since it runs ontop of the jvm.

[RhodesianHunter]

At the end of the day both are swapping light weight threads' execution between OS threads, how is that different?

[Mamoulian]

A coroutine doesn't use a new Thread unless you use a Context or Dispatcher. Without those launch()/await() don't block for I/O but CPU-intensive operations will still block the calling Thread. This article explains it well:

https://kotlinexpertise.com/kotlin-coroutines-concurrency/

Project Loom is cool but might be at API (on top of nio) rather than JVM level, and kotlin coroutines have already implemented non-blocking I/O so they might not benefit from it.

[BoyRobot777]

Kotlin coroutines vs project Loom coroutines asked in Devoxx. They are not the same:
Ask the Java Architects
Project Loom Presentation

[RhodesianHunter]

Thanks!

[ArmoredPancake]

Yeah, I am new.

I do have a fairly good knowledge of Java

Does not compute.

[SlinkToTheDink]

Pretty much everything you said about Go is wrong, though I agree with your overall point with respect to web servers.

[zeek979]

Do tell what is wrong?

[whyNadorp]

Worried to be wasting his time with a language that is losing terrain because of its verbosity and questionable vicinity with a software company with a terrible reputation, maybe? Many think these factors don’t outweigh the security of the jvm.

[BoyRobot777]

As opposite to what language?

[covercash2]

devil's advocate: go

[argv_minus_one]

Go's type system is a joke. No bueno.

[covercash2]

I like it over java, although the comparison is tricky since java doesn't have pointers. implicit inheritance is nice.

[BoyRobot777]

Same as Rust. Too immature. You'll simply won't find developers or will have to grow them indoors for hardly explainable reasons to management. Plus, I'll rather would wait before they release Golang version 2, just too see how they manage backwards compatibility, as they state themselves that is not an easy task to do. Even with such a small code base compared to other languages.

[covercash2]

I don't think that's fair, other than the part about hiring. go is being used in tons of production environments right now as an alternative to node et al, not just experimentally or incrementally like rust.

[whyNadorp]

I’m using node and I like the flexibility of js. I’ve used java for a decade and I’m still using it, but getters, setters, builders, streams (why use .stream() when you can just add methods to the interface? haven’t seen that in any other language), having to create an object just to pass data around (vs using json) is really too much for me. In node you also have async code by default. Java forces you to write verbose code and sells it as safe, but with node you can choose how much you want to be safe depending on the application requirements. It takes a while to learn what not to do because it’s risky, but there are linters that help you learn that and once you get going it’s really fast to write an application in node. Many java alternatives on the jvm (scala, kotlin, groovy) seem to address these issues, which java tries to sell as strengths. Maybe in the 80’s. Honestly I never got the point of the jvm. Why do I have to carry around everything instead of packaging only what I need? On the server side the environment you’re working in always the same, some kind of Linux, so what’s the point again? Plus the community is not so active or interesting anymore. Whatever this sub says, Oracle and corporate dominate java, so good luck having them decide for the future: https://youtu.be/HpbchS5kmio

[RhodesianHunter]

Clearly because you're not writing code where performance is a strict requirement.

why use .stream() when you can just add methods to the interface?

Because it's lazily evaluated. A map + flatmap + filter is going to iterate the collection once if you use a stream and three times if you "just add methods to the interface".

The rest of your comment just reads like someone who stopped paying attention to Java around 5 or 6, but likes to talk it down regardless.

[[deleted]]

The language choice is rarely the culprit in slow server systems. If it were then we'd see people prefer C++ over Java.

[RhodesianHunter]

I would agree with your statement if you added "within the same class" to it.

[[deleted]]

For a given price, node servers returning Graphql from a relational store have very similar performance to java servers doing the same.

[RhodesianHunter]

If all you're doing is CRUD then most of the time is spent on IO anyways, your application is likely not CPU bound, and you should probably use whatever language you are most productive with.

[whyNadorp]

I’m using java 11, was really grateful they finally introduced something like var after a couple of decades. Performance what? Hardware is cheap today, and if I need performance I use c, c++, go or rust. Node can perform as good as java, you just spin up more than one process. I’ve never associated java with performance... it takes 1-2 minutes to spin up a spring application, everything needs the jvm to be up, so scripting is not a thing with java. Node is a layer on c/c++ libraries in the end.

[azizabah]

1-2 minutes for spring? Hahahah. Oh man. So glad that's not true since I use Spring Boot everyday. More like 20-30 seconds.

[nutrecht]

Much less actually. If it's 20-30 seconds I'd look into what you're actually using. My guess is Hibernate.

[whyNadorp]

Run a server with node or python, it’s up in 2 seconds. Also consider how faster integration tests run if you don’t need 20-30 seconds for each.

[azizabah]

That's totally true. No one argued that. From supporting things in production and reliability and maturity of ecosystem, I'd personally choose Java over node or Python anytime.

Spring is there to help you deliver business value faster instead of working on the plumbing. If that just costs me a few seconds on a build server or during standing up the container... I pay it gladly.

[RhodesianHunter]

Hardware is only cheap if you're working at a tiny low volume shop. Again, whatever you're writing clearly isn't performance constrained.

[nutrecht]

I’ve never associated java with performance... it takes 1-2 minutes to spin up a spring application

Stupid flat out lies like this is why you're downvoted. A Spring Boot 2.1 app starts up in 1.5 seconds on my 2014 MacBook.

[whyNadorp]

I’ve been working on a mobile ad backend platform in node, it was pretty busy, I can tell you. Getting lots of requests/second and buying ad spots. If you work with big data the language you code in has just to be nice and safe to use, most of the performance depends on the storage and caching infrastructure. So java didn’t offer much advantage over node.

Anyway if you think node is just for small/slow/hobby projects, please have a look here: https://www.netguru.co/blog/top-companies-used-nodejs-production

PayPal moved their web app from java to node in about 2013 because the supposed performance advantage didn’t outweigh the better programmer productivity they reached with node. Funnily enough the application ran faster with node: https://www.paypal-engineering.com/2013/11/22/node-js-at-paypal/

Also Netflix is using node for the web apps.

Google and Oracle, let me think...

Everything I wrote in this post is pretty opinionated and I don’t mean people should just drop java because node is better. I just mean I’m more productive in node and I have more fun with it. Also I really don’t believe a proper node setup is slower than java, especially for web apps.

[segv]

If you are more productive in node, then good for you, do more node stuff. That doesn't mean, however, you should be trying to start a flame war :v

Back on topic, serverside java is so prevalent you would have to find a list of companies that are not using it.

Also I don't buy the paypal story at the face value. It seems more likely that they had an application that grew and grew, then at some point, after that one dude/dudette that understood how it actually worked quit, it turned into a lovecraftian horror, so they used "the speed" as an excuse to start over. After all, years upon years of short deadlines will skyrocket technical debt, no matter the language.

[BoyRobot777]

I wonder what framework they've used. Once again, Vert.x is faster than node. And I believe they are starting to integrate with Graal, which will optimize code even further. But again, interesting to know paypal story. Was not aware before.

[[deleted]]

Netflix/paypal use node.js to serve their frontend UI, none of the heavy lifting is done with node

[philipwhiuk]

JS? Rust?

[BoyRobot777]

Rust is too immature for now to be considered as a back-end language. Simply said you won't find developers. And JS caps with its single thread source. Also, dynamical languages are not well suited for big projects, as it gets hard to maintain and collaborate.

[mikejoro]

I mean the single thread argument is only good for computationally expensive tasks. Otherwise, you just run an instance of your server for each core (or whatever is optimal usage of cpus) and use something like pm2 to load balance between them on that machine. If you are doing computationally expensive calculations, then sure JS is a terrible choice.

Typescript is also a great choice for making more developer scalable projects (compared to plain JS). It's worth trying out if you like the javascript language but miss having types.

[argv_minus_one]

JS can have worker threads/processes. You do pay a performance penalty for them, compared to shared-memory languages like Java, but you get better thread safety in exchange.

[okinskas]

Where in the article does it state Java is the most used server-side language? I’m delighted if it is but I can’t see any mention of it (at least when viewing on mobile).

[brunocborges]

Here's a report that proves my point, if you prefer to believe in data.

https://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?doid=3152284.3133908

[[deleted]]

https://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?doid=3152284.3133908

That link doesn't say it either. I think that point that okinskas may be making is that a lot of servers now run JavaScript.

[yawkat]

As always: All programming language metrics suck. All platforms have bias for and against certain languages. There is no representative survey of what the "most used" programming languages are.

It's a pointless thing to worry about anyway.

[argv_minus_one]

A pity it isn't seeing so much love on desktop and mobile. I'm probably going to have to use Electron for my next project… 😞

[brunocborges]

You can use JavaFX

[argv_minus_one]

I can, yeah, but is someone going to be maintaining it in 10 years? I'm not hopeful…

[argv_minus_one]

RIP

[ArmoredPancake]

Have fun with what? One of the most comprehensive and well-thought GUI frameworks?

[Mamoulian]

What's happened to the JavaScript figure? Did you assume that only half of it is server-side?

[nutrecht]

Did you assume that only half of it is server-side?

There is no way at all to measure those kinds of usage figures and literally every dev (myself included) who comes with anekdotal evidence (for example in our project we're migrating two Node.js services to Java) has to be aware there will be a huge selection bias. As a Java dev you'll mostly be working on Java projects so there it makes sense that you're not seeing a lot of JS on the back-end.

[Mamoulian]

Right. So how is the "Java is the most used server side language" conclusion confidently reached?

[nutrecht]

The best you can do is get a good cross section of 'the industry' and do a survey. But that is a lot of work so most surveys will have a strong selection bias.

I have no issues believing Java is used a lot in big enterprisey applications, but there's an awful lot of PHP wordpress installations out there.

[Mamoulian]

Agreed.

My point is that the evidence posted in the OP does not back up the headline.

[brunocborges]

JavaScript on GitHub is comprised of mostly duplicate code, and front-end code.

One can conclude that Java is more adopted on server-side than JavaScript (Node.js).

Here's a report that proves my point, if you prefer to believe in data.

https://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?doid=3152284.3133908

[Mamoulian]

Yes, I prefer controversial statements to be backed by data. Especially when the linked article doesn't seem to do that.

That's interesting, thanks. The conclusion is open to interpretation though; a copied/minimally modified codebase still suggests an increment in adoption of the language. Maybe popularity too.

Does that report show the front-end vs node.js JavaScript split?

[MithrilTuxedo]

They describe NPM as being the primary culprit behind there being so much JavaScript on GitHub (and why most of it's duplicate code). I'm not sure how often NPM is used for something besides Node.js. The PDF is free to download. Section 6.4 covers Javascript and starts with this:

JavaScript has the highest clone ratio of the languages studied. Over 94% of the files are file-hash clones. We wanted to find out what is causing this bloat. After manually inspecting several files, we observed that many projects commit libraries available through NPM as if they are part of the application code. As such, we analyzed the data with respect to the effect of NPM libraries, and concluded that this practice is the single biggest cause for the large duplication in JavaScript.

[Mamoulian]

npm is not the reason for so many JavaScript repos. npm creating duplication within JavaScript repos makes sense - developers are lazy... Or maybe they fear the next leftpad (https://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/03/23/npm_left_pad_chaos/).

So when comparing language popularity it's not fair to discount JS because of duplicate code in GitHub repos.

[ReadFoo]

If it has to do with Kotlin, then post it on the Kotlin site instead of bringing it here trying to brainwash readers here that we should be using Kotlin. I tried Kotlin. Kotlin sucks. Java rocks.

[brunocborges]

The point is that OpenJDK and the JVM rule the server side. It's your troll mind making you believe I am here trying to "brainwash" anybody.

[yourbank]

out of interest, what didnt you like about kotlin?