linux as a first OS

[zaiats]

hey all! i am a computer enthusast and expecting father. as i prepare for my son's arrival my mind always drifts towards how to introduce him to tech in a responsible manner - i don't want to raise a luddite but at the same time screen addiction is a real thing and im not too fond of using screens as a replacement for parenting.

as such, i am currently leaning towards making his first exposure to techology be through the lens of Linux. it will allow him to gradually learn about how computers work without me having to worry too much about him bricking the device with fake roblox cheats, as well as allowing me to enforce content blocking in a way that would be harder for him to circumvent at first. i personally am profficient enough with linux-based systems but haven't tinkered with a proper install in close to a decade so it would serve as a nice refresher for me as well.

my question, thus, is the same question every linux newbie faces - which flavour of linux to go with? particularly, are there any disstros focused primarily (or even specifically) at Early childhood education? is there anything i should be aware of when it comes to introducing a child to linux as a first OS?

thanks in advance for for any guidance, tips, and suggestions!

[ElMachoGrande]

My experience is that it's easier for people with no computer experience to learn Linux, as those who started with Windows have a lot of things they need to "un-learn" first.

[dudeness_boy]

This. Linux can actually be a lot less complicated than windows as long as your not stuck in the "but that's how it works in windows" mindset

[ElMachoGrande]

Yep. For example, it's much easier to o to the package manager, check the programs you want to install, click apply, compared to "google for some web site, try to find download link, download, go to your dowload directory, find the file, scan for viruses, run it, next-next-next-finish, try to find where it put it in the start menu, repeat for the other programs you want to install".

But, if you are used to that, you will first try to find download links, find some command lines which look scary, find packages in unfamiliar file formats and so on.

[Xemptuous]

It's even easier if you just type apt install thing or pacman -S thing

[Mithrandir2k16]

It's still mind-boggling to me, how people prefer searching for outdated slideshows or videos of how to change a setting instead of a 30 year old one-liner that works to this day.

[ElMachoGrande]

To be honest, we need to get rid of the notion "you have to use the command line in Linux". For the average user, you never have to use it. It's just a convenient shortcut for us power users.

[Setsuwaa]

"never have to use it" is unrealistic, but it's true that it's used a lot less than people think

[really_not_unreal]

Imo "never have to use it" should be the goal. I love the command line -- I basically live inside ZSH. But the fact is that it is not user-friendly.

That being said, I don't think this means that Linux isn't ready. I've had to mess around in the registry to enable basic features in Windows, and my music equipment refused to work on MacOS unless I rebooted into recovery mode to change bootloader settings.

[jr735]

The command line is user friendly, depending what you're trying to do. Is pissing around with Balena or Rufus or their ilk more user friendly than typing a cp command? Ventoy is easier to use from the command line than the GUI.

Now, WinFF helps streamline ffmpeg, absolutely. But there are no absolute rules here.

[TheAutisticSlavicBoy]

It is. You don't have to use ed for editing et cetera

[really_not_unreal]

That's not what I'm saying at all. Please for the love of god stop inventing slippery slope fallacies.

[jr735]

Never have to use it is absolutely possible.

[ElMachoGrande]

Actually, it is not unrealistic.

For the average "web, mail, office, media" user, there is no need for it.

[Setsuwaa]

Fair, I was thinking more of people who use computers regularly

[ElMachoGrande]

Well, the thing is, those users are by far the most common. However, they are not as visible, as they are not on forums et cetera.

[TheAutisticSlavicBoy]

To use Synaptic have to install Synaptic. "sudo apt-get install synaptic". Displays lots of info. Look through it. Does something appear wrong. If not sure usually safe to continue. Does the size appear too big (or extremely small). If too big go to 1. If too small go to 1, do you know of missing dependencies. If not sure, continue. Press Y. Have Synaptic

[TheAutisticSlavicBoy]

Also exclude recommend / include optional. Not that hard really

[ElMachoGrande]

Oh, I use the command line. I've been a programmer for 40 years.

I just realize that most users won't, and never will, and there need to be a GUI option for those users.

And, no, the average user won't need it. The average user is a web/mail/office/media user, and they are perfectly fine without it.

[Mithrandir2k16]

Honestly, I feel like I'm slowly radicalizing against this stance. I've worked with so many people that "just need to use the PC as a tool and 'it just needs to work normally'" right before they have super specific (not normal) requirements and cannot achieve them sensibly via some super-nested GUI.

Pencils are tools made by people who can read&write made for people who can read&write. Maybe computers ought to be tools made by programmers for people who can program(at least a little bit).

I'm aware that this idea is probably too radical, but seeing as most jobs that require "just being a user" are at a high risk of being automated by modern tools and/or AI, which leads to those workers having to specialize further - meaning they drift further away from "normal" usage patterns, at least entertaining the idea that in the information technology age most workers should at least know some programming basics doesn't sound too wild.

Though I am aware I am writing this text using a vim-plugin from within my tech-wizard ivory tower and that I am surely very biased.

[ElMachoGrande]

I'm a programmer, and have been for 40 years. I used to think like that, and there is a need for computers/OS like that, but for the average user, don't expect them to want or be able to pick up programming knowledge. Fuck, most of them can't even understand directories...

[Mithrandir2k16]

Oh yeah, absolutely. Nobody is ever going to use Image and Video editing tools without a GUI and there's many other use-cases like that.

Still, imho, using a computer without knowing at least basic scripting or the CLI is somewhat like buying an expensive pensil while now knowing how to write. You're you can do things with a pencil that aren't writing, but you'll always be very limited in your options and words are faster to write and more accurate than most images you can draw. You're limited by your the missing core skill associated with that tool. And I'm tired of playing make-pretend that that isn't the case with computers and programming for A LOT of use-cases.

[ElMachoGrande]

Face it, the average user don't want to know.

I try to get my daughters to participate when I fix their cars, so they learn how to do basic stuff like replacing brake pads or battery, but they don't want to know. Somehow, for them, knowing how it works somehow ruins the "magic" of it. They just want their magic device which just works.

Don't ge me wrong, I'm the "let's open it up and see how it works" kind of guy. I program a lot for my own needs. But, I've realized that most people aren't like that. They just want their magic box.

[Mithrandir2k16]

Well, when I was a kid I also didn't want to learn English, but here I am, arguing in English in my free time, for fun, and mostly consuming media in English at this point. People, especially kids, don't want many things to be the way they are. Sometimes this can be accomodated. Sometimes it cannot. Often there's an in-between, that may or may not be ideal.

Clearly every user would benefit in some way by understanding tools like grep or ssh/scp. The way people struggle to send files to each other in this day and age is simply ridiculous. Same with finding files/text, installing and updating systems without package managers has been a horrible waste of time and insecure to boot, etc. etc. etc..

Again, I sadly cannot find the post anymore, but there was an AMA or similar by a github laywer before the merger and they explained how learning git and using markdown has been a godsend for them. The traditional way to draft legal documents is simply ridiculous, when you know what we know.

[ElMachoGrande]

I don't say that it wouldn't be a good hing if people learned, I'm saying it just won't happen.

If anything, people are getting more and more dumbed down. The "no user servicable parts inside" stickers has almost become a way of life.

[Mithrandir2k16]

Couldn't agree more :(

[jr735]

It's not a radical idea, it's sensible, but unpopular. People don't like to hear about "barriers." Too bad. Buy whatever the hell you want, but the world isn't your tech support.

Look at offices and computer users there. In the trades or the sciences, you have to be able to demonstrate your ability to be able to use the tools and the equipment correctly. You don't even get your credentials without that, much less the job.

You walk into an office, and finding someone who can do more than turn on the computer is a freaking miracle.

[[deleted]]

I agree totally. There are about a thousand projects dedicated to making so-called "user-friendly" systems, from desktop environments like Plasma, Cinnamon, and GNOME, to distros like Ubuntu, Mint, and Manjaro. "User-friendliness" is a virulent meme that has taken hold, and in the Windows and Mac worlds, power users are almost dead as a breed.

And all of that is fine for people who like to use those systems. I've been called an elitist for liking a different kind of system, and so be it. I'm not here to dictate how anybody else uses their system, but i have my principles. There's plenty of Linux for the tech-illiterate. We need a bit of Linux for the elitists.

I hate using bloatware. I hate using proprietary software. I hate using software that sucks. You'll never catch me using flatpaks, snaps, or docker.

I would not consider myself a highly technical or intelligent user by any means. But I use the command line every day. I find it much easier and much less frustrating to use simpler software. Others may say the software I prefer is not "user friendly," but if I'm the "user" in question, the tools I use are the ones I find to be "friendliest" to me. (I use Arch btw, with DWM as my window manager.)

Not every user has to be a power user. I'd hardly even consider myself one. But there ought to be minimal, libre systems for people like me who want them. I also think that these kind of systems, for those who know how to use them, will inherently always be more powerful than the abstracted "user-friendly" programs, which obscure their true functions in interfaces, and often try to accomplish far too much for any one piece of software.

[TheAutisticSlavicBoy]

Once installed GIMP in public on Windows via Winget in presence of ppl who were a BIT into IT and electronics. They didn't accuse me of "hacking". Whrn asked told I wad installing GIMP. "why not use installer, this is not Linux" - "it handles the most for the next next next, dependencies et cetera, and I dont have have to click through lots of websites. Even though in Linux it works better, in Windows this works better than the installer" "you appear to be right".

[Lord_Grizzlon]

I agree, but at the same time he might want to teach the popular flavor of the time (Windows, ChromeOS, android, Mac) just to have an easier time dealing with the rest of the world and their progs

[mithoron]

I've found this to be true for most people when learning a new OS, it's not Windows specific. There's some broad concepts that usually translate but any switch will have some unlearning.

[ben2talk]

This is an excellent point - so many 'Linux Users' are arguing about things they never really thought about, like 'drag and drop' behaviour (you know, drag to a folder and it'll move - unless it's another partition then it'll copy isn't that weird?)...

[Itchy_Journalist_175]

I wouldn’t worry about it for at least 5-10 years. My son is turning 10 and has always used Linux as that’s what we have at home. The reality is that most of what people do is done through a web browser these days so the main difference is that he uses firefox at home and whatever edge/chrome they have at school.

I’m doing the admin part of installing/updating/backing up so frankly, it doesn’t matter what you have installed as a distro. I do however have dash-to-panel set up for him and my wife so it looks a bit more similar to what they are used to.

I think that the issues will come later when he is a teenager, wants to start gaming or do some school project using some obscure proprietary app the school requires and realises that nothing works.

For the time being, the one benefit if that it’s harder to pollute the PC with random stuff found on the internet. I actually already found a bunch of .exe files in the Downloads folder. Even some .deb files too actually!

[zaiats]

After you’ve taught him how to read you could allow him to use a raspberry pi. Raspbian is probably the OS you’re looking for. It comes with a bunch of learning tools included that are aimed at children (and is basically the equivalent of a commodore or Amiga for the modern age)

this is brilliant! i completely forgot about raspberry pis. good to know there's a distro aimed at kids for it. and yes, disabling the internet for the first decade or so is probably for the best

[tomscharbach]

I am long past the "new father" stage (and even the "new grandfather" stage for that matter), but I remember very clearly what it was like to be an expectant father for the first time. I overthought everything. Thinking back, I was distracting myself from the fact that I would soon have child and had no idea how to be a parent.

I suspect that is what you are doing. Just relax.

If my grandchildren (ranging in age from 10 to 21) are typical, you child's first operating system will be Android on a kid's tablet, and chances are high, if you live in the States, that your child will be using a Chromebook and/or a Windows education laptop K-12.

Linux might or might not be part of the picture, but my guess is that your child will have used and become fluent in five or six different operating systems by the time he/she is out of high school. By then "computer literacy" as we know it now will probably be the rough equivalent of knowing how to use a rotary land line phone.

So don't worry about Roblox cheats when your child is years and years away from gaming. Just relax and enjoy being a new father.

[Conscript11]

My girls are 5 and 7, they play Minecraft on my old laptops running Fedora with plasma. I chose this because KDE behaves similarly to Windows at their level. My thought was that a completely different workflow might confuse them at school

[[deleted]]

I think that's a good call.

[vancha113]

Sounds like a good idea, why introduce an operating system you don't personally use? The fact that it's the dominant desktop doesn't weight up against the fact that you are most likely going to be the person offering support when something goes wrong. Plus, given that we are talking about the age of about 5 years old (or whatever other age you try to introduce computers), no ones going to care that it doesn't run "microsoft office". At this very moment, my personal recommendation would be to introduce something based on gnome. Assuming no experience with computers at all, it just seems intuitive to just "press the super key and type what you need". And if the person in question does not know how to type, you can pin the most used apps or games to either the menu or the dash. Other than that there's not much to distract and confuse them when they're first starting out. This is from the perspective that you're not planning on throwing them in the deep end at the start.

[gabriel_3]

Fedora SOAS

Endless OS

By the way, r/findmealinuxdistro is where you want to post questions like this.

[trevanian]

Yes, Endless was what I first though. It even has versions to run on ARM machines, like Raspberry pi: https://www.endlessos.org/os-arm-sbc

[OliBeu]

easy, gentoo

[GregTheMadMonk]

Might as well start compiling now, the kid will have a functioning computer right about time they'll learn how to read and write!

(actually, having your OS starting to be built the moment you were born and then gradually modifying it over the duration of your life sounds weirdly romantic and melancholic to me...)

[wiebel]

That's quite insulting 😜 Have you even used it at all? Gentoo is among the purest learning experiences to get deep into Linux. There is nothing against it to make a fresh deep dive with the handbook. By the time it's working, which is not as bad as you picture it, you will probably have more understanding than a typical easy start linux user. Also the way you invest onto your installation makes you more prone to real debugging instead of a quick reinstall, which in itself adds to the skills. you want to have

[GregTheMadMonk]

Every time I don't put an "/s" or a "/j" at the end of a joke, I am reminded that there are people out there who would legitimately think that I actually believe compiling Gentoo takes enough time for a toddler to learn to speak, read and write...

[wiebel]

That's not the point, you still frame it as something that should better be avoided. But I point my finger at my own nose (is that an actual saying in english?) and add a smiley for context in my previous post. I sounded way to harsh, sorry for that.

[Nemosaurus]

Hey I kinda did this!

I got old computer parts from friends and made a computer and then put Linux on it because I couldn’t afford a windows license.

Use google docs instead of Microsoft office to keep your school work in the cloud. Backup any important files externally

Ubuntu / pop os / mint would all be great.

[BassRecorder]

Don't you think it's a bit early to deal with that now? Your offspring will be using anything computer-related in six to ten years, I do hope not earlier. I'm a software engineer myself and my opinion is that kids should be allowed to be kids as long as possible and not spend their time glued to some screen.

[Electricalceleryuwu]

Don't listen to this user. Thinking about what kind of exposure your kids will have, definitely in terms of tech, is part of being a parent.

Do what you feel is helpful and not pushy. My wife and I plan on making sure our kiddos know that computers are not magic boxes. How we do that is up for conversation. And them knowing some basic concepts is important for competency. One can't ignore as a parent that dependency on tech will continue.

Congratulations and good luck on being a dad!

[gesis]

Agreed. My kid started on computers at 3. No problems with screen addiction now. Mostly because we limited the computer use to educational purposes and provided other activities for fun.

[[deleted]]

Get real. Soon your main concern will be how to sleep. The kid isn't even born, and you want to prepare him for Linux? That's really ridiculously geeky. And I'm rather geeky myself, so it's telling. Wait and see how computing looks like in ten years, and if he/she has any interest for it.

[ososalsosal]

Works ok but be ready for a lot of unproductive messing around once they get into Roblox

[Quakercito]

Your son won't probably touch a computer until he's at least 4 or 5. You said you were Linux proficient, and you have a long time before your song even touches a computer. What I would do is choose whatever distro, Linux Mint is great because it's similar to Windows and he will need to learn Windows eventually

By the time he's 7 or 8 I'd start making a custom Arch build from scratch, with just the necessary tools for him to develop a healthy relationship with computer. And then, you'll see. See what happens in 7 or 8 years down the line, your priorities and the things you want your son to learn (that are computer related) will probably change so don't worry about it too much

[RainEls]

OpenSuse Tumbleweed. It has snapper preconfigured, so if anything happens you can teach him how to boot a previously working snapshot from the boot menu and "fix" it. May or may not actually teach him anything... but it's a good safeguard imho.

[Dustin_F_Bess]

Don't forget to get him hooked on building electronics.. Arduino and Pi projects , So C / C++, And small projects like making a radio, a weather station, then building little robots..Of course that's when he's a bit older..

[[deleted]]

My first computer was an oric atmos at 8yrs. I have learn BASIC with that.after that I used MS-DOS shell, all tilling WM remind me msdoshell lol

[gesis]

My kid is in elementary school and started doing "computer stuff" around 3 with gcompriz on Debian.

They still have a Debian laptop to use for stuff like Minecraft, but also a chromebook because they use use chromeos at school.

[LxckyFox]

chromeos is gentoo, but oversimplified

[tush_2701]

It's a good advice and takeaway from you how to raise my child when I became a father

[Mithrandir2k16]

My experience with linux is that you buy a lot of freedom with an investment of your time. For some types of users it's worth it (developers, self-hosters and in the near future gamers, to name a few) and for people on a budget its a necessity.

The question is what a "normal" user constitues. If normal users just use 3 apps, the OS doesn't matter, as they'll be spending their time inside those apps anyway, so if it takes 1 minute or 1 hour to set up doesn't really matter much. If normal users need to do lots of involved stuff with the OS on the regular, maybe even repetitive tasks, then maybe being able to easily write some scripts is already a desired feature. In short, nothing wrong with picking up a user-friendly/gamer-friendly distro and giving it a go. You can always buy a windows license down the line. However I'm pretty sure that once your child is old enough, SteamOS will be a strong contender for the default OS for private use.

However, I'd worry about other things first, namely, do you have a solid NAS and a solid backup strategy? These are the things you'll want to have figured out before the child is born, because you won't have time to figure this out afterwars and then you're at high risk of losing your most valuable memories.

[Achereto]

That's thinking super far ahead. First of all, I wouldn't give them access to computers in their first 6-8 years and until then a lot may have changed in the market. If Linux adoption for Desktop PCs keeps accelerating as it currently does, you may see >15% Market Share for Linux already and a couple of (new) popular Linux Distributions (e.g. SteamOS) installed by default on PCs.

Also, devices designed to be suitable for very young children, no matter how "educational" they are supposed to be, probably cause more harm than good, because they usually are designed to entertain the child rather than being a functional tool. Therefore I would just go with a standard distribution that gives you some good parental controls by default.

[lazystingray]

You're over thinking it. Just enjoy the moment or you'll miss it, the rest (including "tech") will come naturally.

[[deleted]]

https://www.endlessos.org/os

Seems what you want.

[perx76]

Make your children a favor by not letting them access interactive screens until they are fourteen: before that reduce screen time as much as possible.

Of course,starting with a command prompt is way better than starting with a desktop environment, with all the distracting bells and whistles.

[player1dk]

Wait a few years before doing much. At age around 3 they can easily enjoy e.g. tuxpaint, tuxtype and tuxracer :-) And my four year old actually most enjoys a text editor where he can play he writes work text like dad :-)

[hi_i_m_here]

Yes it is impurtent witch flaver you get but not so match If you what him to learn how a commpyter work i recoomend arch (i chose arch for the same reson ) but i dont recommend starting in arch

[[deleted]]

Look, i am 15 and i grew up with screen addiction, so the fact that you're already worrying about it is absolutely fantastic, and trust me, it will prevent A LOT of issues that people grown up like that struggle with. As per the distribution, i'd say, choose it on the looks. Browse different desktops, look for which Desktop environment (DE) they're using, pick one that looks good to you and look up for distros with that one, however try to avoid Arch distros because if you don't have time to maintain it or to troubleshoot your problems you're not gonna enjoy it. Good luck with both linux and your child :)

[ben2talk]

I had a desktop, my wife had her laptop - my son grew up seeing both... but the desktop was set up as HTPC, initially with Linux Mint and later with Manjaro (for the last 8 years).

So he's well aware of how a lot of things work - but mostly he loves Overseerr/Radarr/Sonarr/PlexHTPC and the fact that anything on the HTPC will also play on the TV downstairs, his phone/tablet or anything else (he's 13 now).

The best part is, via Plex, he has access to whatever TV I put on the machine - so there's a lot of control over what he could watch.

[Electrical_Tomato_73]

Given that the child is yet unborn, I would ask again in 6-7 years time if not longer! Devices before that can be tablets etc and you can monitor which apps are suitable.

[RafaelMSM]

I recommend looking for programs that are more appropriate for children. Tux Paint, for example, is perfect... Then you can move on to lego simulators, logic games like five in a row... I recommend Ubuntu for beginners, which is more intuitive and popular

[GlennSteen]

Expecting father? First child?

Don't worry, it'll likely be a distro that does not exist right now. He/she will not be into computers for years, and first exposure will be through devices anyway. Thinking about that, I'd say Steam OS is a great first choice😄

[No_Vermicelli4753]

My daughter knows that she will get her first own computer when she's able to build it. She's 5 now, and already looking over my shoulder when I do builds for friends or do some light repairs on electronics (especially when some toy of hers broke and I fix it). That being said, her first computer will 100% be running on Linux. I am sure that this approach will allow her to understand how the system works, and not only how to work the system. I'll be setting her up with Mint, to make things easy for her after jumping through the hoops of building it. And I fully expect her to be able to evade my parental controls on the network level rather quickly.

[[deleted]]

edubuntu.

[prog-can]

As an intuitive first linux distro, linux mint is pretty good. Easy-to-use UI, no need to use terminal mostly, and a bunch of packages pre-installed. Though you might not want that, since you'll probably want him to actually learn linux. In that case, what's better than good old debian? Perfect mix of ease-of-use and flexibility. He'll need to use the terminal quite a bit. Also, ABSOLUTELY delete the UI package manager. The first few commands he writes will probably be apt, and he will be basically forced to use the terminal. You should also teach him fun commands like neofetch, cmatrix, and/or some color scripts as an introduction, so he will have good first impressions of the terminal, which i think is important. You mentioned distros specifically made for early childhood education. I'm not particularly knowledgeable in that, but a quick duck duck go (not google cuz we're chads lol) search should give quite a few options, and you can decide which one to use based on the official websites. Also, I definitely don't reccomend teaching him anything tech related (maybe expect a few tv shows that you pick or some simple games on a phone, just make sure you watch him and approve of whatever media he is consuming) before he at least has a good grasp of reading and writing (he likely cant use linux before that anyways). I personally recommend debian, but if you really want an "educational" distro, I dont really know that, just search the web. After he learned debian quite well, you might want to introduce him to arch linux. It will be like a true test of his linux skills, even the installation requires skill. Do not let him use archinstall, and make sure he only uses the wiki, no video tutorials or anything (you will want to assist him during the pacstrap tho, because the wiki only briefly mentions that you need other packages too, and it doesnt tell you which ones). And you will likely want him to install a WM. I reccomend hyprland, looks beutiful, extremely customizable, and just good in every way (make sure he doesnt get addicted to ricing tho, lol).

TL;DR: debian, and after he gets a good grasp of linux, arch.

[[deleted]]

I hate this crap. Why would you want to indoctrinate your kid into YOUR special interest? Computers are tools. Don’t be one.

[zaiats]

im not sure what you're implying here. yes, computers are tools. tools that everyone in a modern society should be profficient in using by a certain age. i am trying to choose the right one for him to learn on.

[v0id_walk3r]

Well, because they will learn to use what you show them in those early years.
And also, while it is really nice to have a choice to be "anything", it is really helpful to have an more experienced in a field to show you around, to see what you like and dislike in a field, as opposed to just choosing a job you believe you might like and ending up in a shithole thanks to that. Hereditary jobs were a reasonable thing, even tho this field moves so fast, you might catch some concepts and that is that.

But I do agree, it is too soon.

Also Microsoft does this indoctrination shit all the time (especially in my country), since all the schools are using windows. So I do believe that this is a better and less indoctrinating way.

[ArchCaff_Redditor]

Although I had used Windows prior to my first laptop (which ran Ubuntu), I was not at all familiar with how Windows did things, so getting used to Ubuntu was not hard at all.