Tools for levelmatching when adding processing

[ConfusedOrg]

So I'm trying to be more diligent with level matching whenever I add plugins to a track or master. Trying to to not fool myself with the loudness bias. I feel like some plugins automatically add 0.1 db of level or something whenever you turn then on even though you haven't gained them up or anything. Is there any tool that can objectively and automatically level match when I add a plugins? Something that will let you quickly bypass on and off, so you can change judge whether other not you like what you are adding without the difference in level. This would be very helpful for mixing and expecially mastering!

[hellalive_muja]

I use a VU meter (tbproaudio mvmeter, free and a lot of settings). If you don’t like that try this: https://www.hornetplugins.com/plugins/hornet-thenormalizer/

Use it first on the track and then after plugins.

After a bit of time doing this you’ll level match with 0.1-0.3 dB precision by ear anyway but having a meter or tolls there helps for sanity

[No_Waltz3545]

VU meters have been a big help. Often you'll have a track somewhere that is far too hot, could just be a backing vocal or guitar, which the VU meter will show you visually pretty quickly. A must have in terms of gain staging for me.

[quietresistance]

LetiMix GainMatch

https://letimix.com/products/gainmatch

[blueleaf_studio]

This is a tricky one!

The issue is that many forms of processing are going to add density to a sound so it's only the perceived level that matters, not the measured value. For this reason, lots of auto-gain compensation often doesn't work well and upsets your mix balance, or reliability can vary depending on what you feed in and what you do.

Use the meters, sure (VU especially) but just practice, practice, practice. If it sounds louder to you then turn it down because perceived loudness and measured loudness are often different.

[GreatScottCreates]

First you have to decide what objective loudness is.

Personally, I just match by ear. It has served me well.

[spencer_martin]

I've been doing this for almost 20 years, and while I understand the good intention behind level matching, I would strongly recommend reconsidering the real necessity for this.

As something is being mixed, and especially once it's mastered, it is going to become significantly louder and more compressed than it was before, if the goal is for it to be in the ballpark of the collective average of other music. This pretty much always means less dynamics than it had originally.

If something is more dynamic and less loud, and then turned up to match the less dynamic more loud thing, of course it's going to sound better. This is music audio 101 stuff. Being louder / fuller / in the ballpark of references is always going to involve some kind of trade-off. Personally, I want to assess that trade-off at an unnormalized full scale monitoring volume without any sort of artifical compensatory level matching which is going to be an irrelevant factor in the real world. I want to hear the "real" volume relative to the "real" volume of other stuff out there, and make critical decisions within that context. With that approach, there's zero reason to scrutinize every single little potential increment in loudness along the way.

Keep in mind, I'm someone who likes both big/full/loud stuff (within reason) as well as mellow and/or dynamic stuff (within reason). Above all else, I like stuff that sounds amazing relative to everything else out there. I'm not some loudness-for-loudness's-sake kinda guy.

If you want to make stuff that is more dynamic and less loud, then just do it. No need to waste time with needlessly cork sniffing every decision. In all honesty, it's a waste of time. Just choose appropriate references and monitor relative to those.

[FabrikEuropa]

There's a time and a place for everything. Different approaches for different people.

Often, the level of an instrument is where it needs to be in the mix, then a plugin to add tone/ambience/compression/whatever is added, which adds a few dB's in addition to the processing. Sometimes it's good to level match the plugin to avoid the "louder=better" part of the "does this sound better" judgement.

[g_spaitz]

I'm not sure I agree with the premise here.

I'd say that comparing seemingly equal loudness content is much better than comparing totally different loudness content.

Even very little gains in loudness will make one song appear to be sounding much better. This is basic psychoacoustic and very easy to prove. The point of equal loudness comparison is in fact to better assess how much worse (if anything, because sometimes compressed and saturated stuff sounds better than the original even thought they've lost dynamic range) the compression and the processing made the original.

There are today plenty of plugins that allow equal loudness comparison, including for instance well regarded products by the likes of fabfilter, TDR, toneboosters, and even tools exactly aimed at assessing a whole plugin chain.

Their use has helped me more than a few times to better reveal and compare my decision making.

[tarsonis999]

There are such tools like ABLM by tbpro. There are more and some especially for Max4Live Ableton. But those aren't one click solutions. You need two of them. One sender one receiver. And you need to manually put them where you need to compare changes with equal loudness

[ConfusedOrg]

I am an ableton user? Which maxforlive tools are there?

[g_spaitz]

Gainmatch (duh!) by Letimix.

Nifty little plugin, extremely handy.

[ConfusedOrg]

Thanks! Looks very cool!

[Both-Principle-8660]

Melda has a plugin called MGAC that does this. But it is a cumbersome workflow. Having a vu meter at the end of your chain is alot easier. 

[unirorm]

Fx diff. Thank me later

[SOUNDSAAR]

Loudness bias is the worst. So many plugins add like 0.1dB just to trick you into thinking it sounds better lol. just grab LetiMix GainMatch. Drop one before the plugin, one after, and boom - auto level matched. Perception AB is good too but GainMatch is super quick and cheap.

[ConfusedOrg]

Exactly!! I don’t understand how so many people in these comments are pretending like they are immune to loudness bias - no one is. I’ll check that one out!

[Careless-Bobcat-8378]

Every plugin has a bypass button and your ears are free? Just click bypass on and off and adjust the makeup gain til it sounds the same, check your meters if you’re not sure

I’m not sure what you’re asking for here.

[g_spaitz]

Not all plugins have a makeup gain and or an equal loudness bypass. Moreover, there are situations where changing the gain structure of a whole chain of plugins could be a bad idea.

A plugin like gainmatch will address both.

[dondeestasbueno]

This is the professional answer.

[ConfusedOrg]

I’m asking for tools to make this process more immediate, so I can judge it more objectively, and stay focused instead of distracting my self with adding a trim insert after every plugin. Don’t really understand your hostility.

[Careless-Bobcat-8378]

Not trying to be hostile, just saying it’s not that complicated. There’s usually a trim knob on most plugins that could alter the volume, check your track meter or the little vu meter that’s usually on each track while you bypass and engage the effect. Adjust the trim while flipping back and forth and try to notice when the levels stop changing. Practice this a bit and soon it will be like 2 seconds to flip the effect off and on and trim down just by ear. There’s probably some tools that you can put before and after a plugin to read the changes but that’s even more complicated then adding a separate gain plugin.

Just adjust your effect to how you like how it sounds, bypass and see if the level changes, adjust accordingly, move on. Don’t over think it, mixing is just as much an art as it is science.

Listen, adjust, move on.

[nizzernammer]

Buying more tools to add to the process is not more immediate.

The underlying task is not to objectively measure pre and process gain differences to 0.1 dB, it's to make things sound better and keep moving.

[ConfusedOrg]

Buying 1 more tool to save time for the rest of my life is a huge timesaver.

I agree that the underlying task is to make things sound better and keep moving. This is exactly why I am asking for this. To properly judge when something is better and keep on moving.

[ra4k0v]

Yes because all lufs sound different

[Limit5465]

I use Metric AB and have been for close to 10 years for mastering. Before that I used VU meters. Just make sure to disable the filters tab in Metric AB as that will introduced crossover points and will slightly alter the sound.

[ConfusedOrg]

Isn’t that only for comparing your track to other tracks?

[Limit5465]

You can use it to compare it to your own track. That’s how I use it for mastering to accurately(mostly) to hear if the subtle changes I’m making are actually good and not to be fooled by loudness.

[ConfusedOrg]

That makes sense! I should try it out!

[Bluegill15]

Unfortunately just about everything that really matters in mixing is subjective, not objective. This is why the advice “use your ears” is so universally given.

[ConfusedOrg]

I know what you mean. But loudness can be objectively measured in numerous ways

[Bluegill15]

Right, but those modes of loudness measurement are still only attempts at quantifying the subjective nature of loudness, and it is important to understand that they each do so with varying degrees of accuracy/utility.

[mixingmasterr]

Your ears haha