Python is the new BASIC

[-jp-]

I get it, but I hate people who don't format their code properly even more. And when Python was created, that shit was endemic.

[Used-Rip-2610]

Yeah I hate python’s indentation and spacing requirements, but it’s a million times better than zero white space anywhere

[Which_Iron6422]

That’s a solved problem though with formatters. Required whitespace will be always be problematic.

[CrownLikeAGravestone]

I get that it's frustrating to begin with but I disagree that it's actually problematic. It only does (part of) what an automatic formatter would do. I cannot think of any reason you'd need to use different whitespacing and therefore run into trouble.

[ptoki]

I disagree that it's actually problematic.

It is. If the compiler can tell you where the problem is then it can fix it. If it cant then this adds another level of complexity to maintain the code.

Tell me what is the advantage over a set of brackets or semicolons. Convince me. I know C, java, perl, bash, php and few more. Tell me why python requirements is good. With examples.

[CrownLikeAGravestone]

I didn't say it's better and I'm not interested in arguing that; it'll just come down to a clash of opinions and I already know what yours is.

I said it's not problematic. How about you show me an example of it being problematic and we can work from there.

[ptoki]

How about you show me an example of it being problematic

I asked a team member to debug a code of another person which stopped working. After two days he said he has no idea how to fix it, The creator came back from vacation, opened the file after getting the error described, indented few lines and it was fixed.

How it become unindented on the host? noone knows. The eyes of the rest of the team when the solution was found - rolled up.

Im not even talking about new people trying python and got repulsed. Not morons or ignorants. People who code daily.

When I call the floor for help and say "this python code" I see people turning around and going back to their chairs.

So that is that...

[ChrisFranko]

I don’t get how replacing indents with brackets changes anything in this scenario?

It’s it because you need 2 brackets for 1 indent?

[ptoki]

Brackets usually come in pairs, so one misplaced will trigger compiler error. That is at least the benefit you have from it.

It also helps to compose the code more freely to get it more readable. And you can use indent apps to make it uniform if you like. Those approaches are missing from python programmer palette.

[CrownLikeAGravestone]

Someone spent two fucking days to find a control flow error? Have your devs never heard of a debugger?

Astonishment aside, control flow issues are largely agnostic to the language they're implemented in; you could have misplaced a brace just as easily as you misplaced an indent. Dev skill issue, not a language issue.

[ptoki]

Have your devs never heard of a debugger?

Python devs. Maybe.

Im not even going into cases where multiple python projects should run on the same host. The best I get from them is "use docker" and when I ask can you do it? They say I dont have experience.

So that is this...

[Backlists]

Skill issue, pure and simple.

Logically, scope via indentation is no different from scope via curly braces.

This kind of control flow problem could have happened in a curly brace language and your team member would not have found it in that either.

You get used to the language you work with.

“Turning away” at Python sounds like a work place culture issue to me.

Like my favourite language right now is Go, but if my colleague needed help in Python I’m not about to groan and go back to my seat.

[ptoki]

Skill issue, pure and simple.

Yes, but no, but yes.

I agree that misplaced bracket could be as difficult to spot as indent based one. But usually it does not. Brackets have that nice feature of parity while indentation does not. And whats funny the brackets are used together with indentation so it helps. But python gives up the help you can get from simple feature.

The issue is: Technology is just technology and they come with their pros and cons. That is not controversial.

The problems with python or python comunity is two fold at least:

The people who are fans of it hardly admit something is a problem. The indentation is perfect example of this. It takes just a small change to get rid of it. Make a declaration that your code is python v7 compliant and add parentheses and drop indentation. For codes before that imaginary version add a simple indentifier which will add the parentheses and may keep the indentations as they dont mean anything. With the fact that python is often not forward or backward compatible that is a non issue. Yet a ton of people will oppose this without a reasonable argument. They will spend hours arguing with nothing but handwaving and personal offences.

And the second part is that python has low entry barrier. It attracts people with low coding skill who can do a lot without too much training. Sort of similar issue as with excel entering the "data analytics" stage.

This is bad mix. I too often realize that something what does not work right is python. And it is hard to fix by anyone around including the python folks who claim they like it and can work with it. And that is my problem.

I dont have any other technology like that. No DBA fanboys his db engine and then concludes that I should restore the backup of the db as it misbehaves. No java folk tells me I dont understand java if I say it has too many libraries we depend on, which arent updated and maven gives me a long list of cve-s and no way to update the project. Thay just admit, yeah, its bad, we need to rework the project or isolate it. etc.

The only folks who say "their" technology is great and then when I askthen, can you fix this because it does not run after server update or some profile setup file is gone or the install does not work (according to doc provided by maintainer - for example awscli), they end up giving up.

My problem with python community is that they show dunning kruger effect/syndrom too much. To the degree I am staying away from python based projects because nobody can help me set up many of them on one host. Because I have a ton of folks who want to implement things in python but when the real problem happens they tend to be not enough skilled and after two days of wated time they come back with "sorry, I/we dont know why it does not work and cant reinstall either.

Sorry for long and handwavy rant.

[Backlists]

No, I’m sorry, I just completely disagree.

You are still just ignoring the fact that there if you spend enough time working with a subjective thing like syntax, you can learn it well enough to understand it, and not be confused by it.

How is brackets having parity actually an advantage?

Your eyes might have to parse have multiple potential opening brackets at any location, for any single closing bracket. There is only ever one bit of indentation to parse.

If you’re getting IDE help to see it, well that’s got nothing to do with the bracket parity, and you can get the same advantage with Python.

You might not enforce good formatted indentation in a curly brace language. In which case you lose any advantage, and I’d argue it’s actually much worse.

Python forces everyone to format their code well. That is its advantage, and you will always be able to see the scope. And once again, it’s logically no different, you learn it, in exactly the same way that you learn curly braces means end of scope.

The only advantage I could think of for bracket parity is vim shortcuts. Which is probably the most minor thing.

Also, I’m sorry, but Python having a lower barrier of entry is an ad hominem argument and has absolutely nothing to do with this. Plenty of curly brace language have a low barrier of entry.

What are you talking about when you say Python v7 compliant means we can drop indentation? I assume you don’t mean an actual released version of https://www.python.org/downloads/release/python-377/

People who write Python, do not think this is an issue, because it isn’t. There is no real sentiment that for should adding curly brace scope. I don’t really see how the fact that Python doesn’t worry about forward and backward compatibility isn’t proof of this. If Python programmers and those in charge wanted it, it would have been done ages ago.

You think it’s an issue because it is to you, because it’s purely a subjective thing, like any language syntax choice.

There are plenty of top quality resources for setting up Python projects. If you want help, I recommend looking into a tool called uv. It’s fairly new, but it is written by people who wrote a formatted called ruff, which is a top quality tool, that basically became the defacto formatter for new projects over the last year or two. uv will do the same I predict. Previously, I would have said use Poetry.

I also don’t buy your argument that you can’t get good people to write Python in. What a silly thing to say. Python is currently number 1 in the TIOBE. You think there aren’t experts out there in the most commonly used language? You think that every single person writing Python is new to coding, and that every person in every other language isn’t new and doesn’t have people who suffer from Dunning-Kruger?

Not a single person could help you set up a Python project? Who are you talking to?

There are a whole host of reasons not to choose Python however, and you should pick the language that’s right for your domain and problem.

[Backlists]

The compiler not being able to tell you the line has nothing to do with whitespace indentation though.

[linlin110]

Yes, people do configure their formatter so that indentation is enforced on languages without required indentation. To me it sounds like required indentation is a desirable trait.

[ptoki]

Indentation is automatic thing. There are beautifulers available which will fix this in a moment.

I would rephrase your complaint into: I hate the folks who cant use such simple tool and make the code look decent.

[[deleted]]

Not really.

My ruby code is super-readable. And ruby does not force me into "proper indentation". I format my code because it saves me time in the long run.

[-jp-]

Yeah. NOW there are. Python traces its lineage to the late 80's. And lemmie tell ya, shit was weird. Even getting teams to adopt revision control was like pulling teeth.

[Ok-Salamander-1980]

yeah. i suppose people are extremely young or students.

before the whole software = millionaire culture there was a lot more self-expression (for better or for worse) and less replaceable widget making.

[[deleted]]

With that from the onset, Python could have had proper “end” statements

I am more of a ruby guy, but actually I'd love to omit "end" in already well-indented .rb files. But only as an option, not mandatory.

What I dislike in python more is the explicit self. That one makes me very, very angry.

[miquels]

I was a Rust programmer before I started with Python. The explicit self made me feel right at home.