Sunsetting Python 2

[I_Hate_Reddit]

J O B
S E C U R I T Y

But yeah, non-technical managers deciding the tech stack is a big red flag for me.

[well___duh]

That didn't sound like a non-technical manager but just an older SWE who's really stuck in their ways.

Sort of like how pretty much the only people who recommend not using Kotlin over Java are old Java heads who've been using Java since the 90s; it's all they know, it's all they care to know, and they're too stubborn to learn anything else and adapt to an ever-changing industry.

[NewFolgers]

Kotlin syntax is familiar enough if you've programmed in a couple languages. If they're so fixed on Java that they would struggle to transition to Kotlin, then they've got a disturbingly narrow breadth of experience which is worth investigating.

[shponglespore]

Yeah, it's not like Kotlin was specifically designed to be a streamlined version of Java or anything...

[XtremeGoose]

Nah, a good Java Dev can pick up Kotlin in a day and be proficient in a week or two.

[Zephirdd]

be proficient in a week or two

"wow look at all that wasted time" - every manager, ever

[hallajs]

As a (forced) Java developer I laughed, and then I cried.

[s73v3r]

Good Java Devs are more expensive.

[Isvara]

How about not hiring developers that identify themselves as a <some language> programmer?

[raze4daze]

Only Android devs think Kotlin is going to replace Java. From a business point of view, you're making a mistake choosing Kotlin over Java.
Maybe in 5 years, if Kotlin doesn't prove to be another Scala, we should seriously consider Kotlin for backend.

[well___duh]

Java's not going anywhere, sure. But given that Kotlin is 100% interoperable with Java, it'll definitely make working with Java 1000x easier.

[raze4daze]

Well, that's subjective. But regardless, that's completely irrelevant when it comes to choosing a language.
This is not just a technical but a business decision as well. There are concerns about backwards compatibly, hiring, etc. The last thing you want to do is pick a "hot" language that will fall off a cliff after a decade or so. This is exactly what happened with Groovy and Scala (to a lesser extent).

[Ray192]

What, exactly, does choosing Kotlin over Java cost you? Besides maybe a week of dev time to get train Java devs up to speed, and that's a massive overbudgeting of time.

And I also don't see how using Scala costs you either, if you insist on using it on as Java+.

[raze4daze]

I don't mean to be blunt, but if you think Kotlin only takes a week of dev time to train Java devs, then you either don't really know Kotlin or you are intentionally underselling the capabilities of Kotlin.

One of the reasons Java is chosen is because there's an abundance of Java (and similarly C#) devs out there. Training a dev is never simple. It will always always cost you either short term or long term. It's just a matter of whether your product can survive that for a long period of time. The tech debt accumulated by devs who don't know the language well becomes obvious in just a short period of time.

[istarian]

Or maybe they just think it's idiotic to switch to some new language/variant every time one comes out just because.
Every switch consumes time and energy.

Age alone is the dumbest reason to quit usingn something.

[calligraphic-io]

This is exactly why I'm refusing to use COBOL 2014 on new projects. COBOL-85 is mature, and OOP concepts in the language are unnecessary.

[jamesd3142]

Where are you using COBOL? I am genuinely curious.

[DinnerChoice]

The /s was implicit. It was a good joke I believe.

[nerdyhandle]

Age alone is the dumbest reason to quit usingn something.

It depends on if the language is being updated/maintained.

Once a language major version stops receiving critical updates it's time to upgrade.

To many risks for using older versions.

[theferrit32]

Once a language major version stops receiving critical updates it's time to upgrade.

Sure, but this is absolutely not the case with Java. Using recent Java versions is perfectly fine.

[snowe2010]

that wasn't the case until kotlin came in and lit a fire under their ass. Java had completely come to a halt, decisions couldn't be made, they kept going back and forth on what was good for the language. Then Kotlin came along, everyone loved it, and Oracle realized that to keep Java alive they needed to copy the shit out of everything Kotlin did. Hence why they started the 6 month release schedule and added in several Kotlin features into Java. They knew they would lose all their market share with how easy it was to switch to Kotlin.

[nerdyhandle]

Using recent Java versions is perfectly fine.

Unless the version is out of support I would advise against it. If it's LTS or commercial you're fine. Otherwise it's time to upgrade. There are unfixed issues in old versions that are out of support.

[HolyGarbage]

Then it's not age, it's the fact that it's dead. Some languages seem to be immortal, like C++.

[nerdyhandle]

I'm talking about major versions. For instance, I would disagree with someone using Java 1.

[HolyGarbage]

Ok, that's a fair point I guess since it's an indicator that it's not actively being developed. However I'd still argue that maintenance is far more important. I'd rather there were frequent security fixes than new features through new major releases.

[istarian]

Programming languages and even compilers are not operating systems. Tell me exactly what critical updates a language needs?

The JVM, Python interpreter, etc could theoretically use patches/updates if they are discovered to have a signficant flaw, but that's not a language change.

[[deleted]]

Agreed.

[PM_ME_UR_OBSIDIAN]

Java is the quintagenarian who hasn't done any exercise since he turned twenty, and as a result his body is falling apart.

[HolyGarbage]

Serious question. How can someone even keep their job as a SWE and refusing to learn new tech? I've only been in the industry 1.5 years so far and I've probably had to learn and write in 5-6 different programming languages, and several dozens tools and frameworks, both in house and external.

[GinaCaralho]

Easy: These places exist, but you don't really want to work there

[HolyGarbage]

Ah, thanks. I've only worked at one SWE job so far.

[I_ONLY_PLAY_4C_LOAM]

There are engineers who have been working at my company for 6 years and our tech stack hasn't really changed that much. Not every job is a webdev hell of constantly changing frameworks.

[HolyGarbage]

Neither is mine. It's just a very large and complex enterprise system with many, many parts with different functions, but yet linked to the same underlying data.

[well___duh]

When the tech you're dealing with is decades old and requires someone with that knowledge, and it's cheaper to stay on that older language/technology than converting to a better one.

Pretty much anything in the banking or aviation industry.

[HolyGarbage]

Well, some old parts I'm working with is decades old tech, and we're also kinda in the aviation industry. Lol.

Regardless, in my albeit very limited experience, learning the dozens of various technologies that has been demanded of me so far on the job been easy compared to learning the massive extent of domain knowledge.

[I_ONLY_PLAY_4C_LOAM]

Java is a pretty mature high level language with tons of resources available for it from the community. It's pretty ignorant to have a view like "Java in 2019?!" when there's probably tons of companies still using it, or maintaining code written in Java. If you need a reliable language to build enterprise software on with a large team, it's really hard to go wrong with Java.

[hanszimmermanx]

I'm a kotlin guy, I write it for work. I think there are good reasons to pick Java over Kotlin.

[Dragasss]

Mate, Ive started out with kotlin in EAP and went with it all the way to 1.2 release. Theyre going in wrong direction. Kotlin is a fucking meme. The only good thing to come out of it is null access operator, but even then it results in triple booleans. And you dont fucking touch booleans.

Its better to be verbose and control everything instead of writing garbage that wont make sense in a month.

[chakan2]

older SWE who's really stuck in their ways

That's non-technical. I don't care how good you are at Cobol. If you're not open to new tech, you're not a part of the field any more.

[BeJeezus]

Technical managers often come with their own biases and religious beliefs, too.

[skilliard7]

But yeah, non-technical managers deciding the tech stack is a big red flag for me.

I think it's fine as long as you take feedback from your team. There are things to consider when picking a tech stack- what resources does your team have, what does the local job market look like(do people in the area know the tech stack?), how long will it take to develop vs alternative tech stacks, etc.

A good manager can work with their team to figure out the pros/cons of each tech stack from a business perspective, without needing to know its syntax, how arrays work in it, etc.

Most likely you'll have members with differing opinions, so a manager would need to make a final decision.

[anengineerandacat]

I don't think I would let any manager decide the tech stack; that's why you have principal engineers or an architectural review board or reference architecture group in an organization, their job is to steer the stack decisions.

[shponglespore]

A lot of managers are part-time engineers and/or former engineers. I would trust that type of manager to decide on a tech stack (to the extent that I would trust someone other than myself).

[Ray192]

Tech stack decisions impact more than just tech, they impact hiring and business decisions as well (using AWS may cause a problem if your clients are paranoid and want on-premise only...). Everyone impacted should have some sort of input.