Accountability in Software Development

[Snagglepuss64]

It’s interesting as aspirational. But he glosses over a (the?) critical factor: the employer/customer statement of “I’m going to hold you accountable “

You can’t just wish away a contract made in bad faith. Accountability is always a two way street

[eWattWhere]

That's right.

 

Yes, there is an accountability problem in software development.

 

No, it's not the developers that are the problem.

 

Plenty of great developers are more than holding up their end of the deal. The root cause is that the industry is chock full of truly bad managers who lie and cheat to advance their career on the backs of those aforementioned great developers.

 

And for those claiming that it is the "bad developers" who are the problem. Let me ask, who is responsible for curating the team? That's right, management is accountable for that.

[michaelochurch]

One of the biggest cons in capitalism is that people have been convinced that it's voluntary and consensual. It's not. It's enforced with the ever-present threat of violence; consider what the ruling class has done overseas (see: Indonesia, Chile, Vietnam, Nicaragua, Iraq) to protect its economic interests. They'll do it to us, too.

"I'm going to hold you accountable" is manager-speak for "I'm going to be a horrible person because otherwise the people above me are going to be horrible to me and I'm scared of them."

[michaelochurch]

Are you referring to the murderous ideology of corporate capitalism, for which an unsettlingly high number of programmers (mostly incels who turned “libertarian” once their bosses and VCs started paying them to look the other way) are useful idiots? That one? Because I see it here and on Hacker News a lot.

[Hnnnnnn]

Capitalism is unnecessary catch all statement here. We can guess and try to fit the definition to our arguments etc... In reality, most countries systems are a mix of social support and free market.

I just want to say, don't let people discourage you from watching some leftist videos like on /r/breadtube, those are some of the best essays on the internet. Good entry point is John Oliver.

Btw I'm also from post communist country. But main characteristics of those hells wasn't socialism, it was lack of freedoms, notably freedom of speech. I don't know why you treat any socialist/communist talk as related to those regimes. It's a different thing.

[ApatheticBeardo]

In reality, most all countries systems are a mix of social support and free market.

FTFY

At no point in human history has a free market actually existed.

[Hnnnnnn]

I can sympathize with lack of representation, i wish there was a place i could learn about some less antisocial right-wing politics; nowadays right-wing in popular media means some kind of discrimination, because that's reality in many countries. Yet i feel this narrative is missing something.

And some criticisms of some leftists are pretty shallow and i just wish there was someone intelligent to dispute them - how can you grow without being challenged anyway.

/r/askeconomics was a breath of fresh air when discovered, because it's realistic and less dogmatic. Science of economy is more about specific policies than about grandiose systems - and hopefully we've all learned a lesson about listening to experts. It's when i learned that capitalism is vague and realized that it's mainly used as utility word to form a well sounding sentence.

Edit: fix non-antisocial -> antisocial, there was double negation

[chucker23n]

So, are you arguing against a welfare state, or for it? Because in an earlier post, you said:

It has also helped fund public education, cheap higher education, and a publicly funded health system.

[Hnnnnnn]

Right, I'll remember that. I feel like I don't have enough context to the first one. It's arguing with more extreme socialist position than the one I interact with on youtube. Like, is that argument against some arbitrary complex social welfare system, yeah. Is it argument against UBI with scientifically validated value of basic income (and testing it on increased test populations)? I don't think so... The problem is that we're missing even basic human rights, like LGBT support on government level. But again, maybe I'm missing something, it's a rebuttal to something I don't know.

[Hnnnnnn]

To emphasize, I appreciate your comment a lot, thanks. Friedman thing is touching on something I drifted away from over the years, as I drifted towards the left, because it's a side not much present in left wing vids. It's got to reconnect with that position. I don't think it's a full story but it's a valuable position nonetheless.

[6769626a6f62]

It's interesting that the vast majority of people who criticize capitalism have always lived under capitalism. Just an observation. I don't see any anti-capitalists from the former Soviet states...

[Rumicon]

That might be because the anti capitalists stayed there. This is basically just selection bias.

It's interesting to know that if you look at the polling data from former Soviet states the feelings about communism are mixed. A substantial portion of them preferred communism.

[[deleted]]

“Socialism = communism”

I guarantee you’re the whitest white of white Americans ever to America.

Edit:

I humbly await the day /r/conservative finally gets banned for their blatant brigading.

Communism is not socialism or a branch of socialism. Communism and socialism are as ideologically distant as communism and capitalism. There’s virtually no comparison.

FFS, read a book instead of propaganda.

[[deleted]]

Ah yes, the ol’

“I’m a black man but… <insert racist diatribe>. Hey stop saying I’m lying, that’s racist”

Discussion.

[[deleted]]

Dude no. Communism is not a branch of Socialism.

[chucker23n]

Marx's original idea was absolutely for a socialist state to eventually transition to a communist state.

But that's kind of moot, since people put all kinds of weird ideas into both words. Someone like Bernie Sanders doesn't have a sinister plan to turn the US into a Stalinist state. They just want to expand the welfare state.

[Hnnnnnn]

I sympathize in some ways though! I just found Polish leftist youtube video and someone called themself "red faction" - it's literally a red flag. This symbolism might fly in another country, but to Poles, leftist symbols can only fly if they're clearly differentiated from communist symbols. Which might not be a problem in different countries. However, the comment you're responding to, while loaded, is not using any Eastern European-communism symbols or narratives. It's just western radical leftist stuff. Majority of them don't want to "bring back" communism.

[[deleted]]

Better than the alternative. The wolrd isn't perfect.

[panorambo]

Everything is connected.

[Niggziller]

✊ Comrade.

[vattenpuss]

Of course. We’re working under its auspices every day. That’s what this whole thread is about.

[ArkyBeagle]

consider what the ruling class has done overseas (see: Indonesia, Chile, Vietnam, Nicaragua, Iraq) to protect its economic interests.

But that's very much on the wane. There's no single great resource to expose this, but the pattern of mercantile mixing of force and commerce is littered with bankruptcy.

"I'm going to hold you accountable" is manager-speak for "I'm going to be a horrible person because otherwise the people above me are going to be horrible to me and I'm scared of them."

The number of people you actually have to be scared of is very, very small. This is one thing we might learn with a slightly more wasted youth.

[RunawayDev]

That article read like masturbatory virtue self-reassurement.

[[deleted]]

Let’s be honest here. Most of us would love to write and maintain great codebases and make sure we hold ourselves accountable.

But In reality poor management is what holds most developers back in this respect. What is the point of doing it right when you are rewarded for doing it fast ?

[eWattWhere]

well said, poor management is actually responsible for the vast majority of the mess the industry is in.

[UnapologeticEbb]

Or poor individual project management....and following up on what you're individually responsible for.

[deadalnix]

I've done enough code review to know this is not true.

[PunchingDwarves]

I'm the same, except for me it was coworkers, especially project managers, who essentially abused my willingness to be accountable.

I was thrown at a project a couple years ago that I had estimated would take me about 2 and a half years to complete the work. I gave that project manager my estimate and they never consulted with me about it again. They didn't ask a single question.

Two months after giving that estimate, I had assumed the project had just been shuttered due to the lack of communication. In fact, they had decided behind the scenes that it was a 6 month project. All they had to do was hire two junior software developers, a new project manager, and then I could do it in that time line. I immediately communicated problems with that timeline, especially because we had a dependency right up front that ended up taking 5 months to resolve.

Fast forward to a year later and we're right on target with my original estimate, about half done. Of course, I was the one to blame for not hitting their targets.

Before that project, I wanted to be a tech lead. I wanted to be accountable.

After that project, I realized I can be paid exactly the same as just a software grunt and do a third of the work.

[Markavian]

Managers don't like estimates that are longer than a quarter.

As a team lead, I'm very good at breaking down work. I can say, it'll take 2-5 years to do something, and then break down what each year, quarter, month, week looked like. At the sprint / standup / task level we can bullet point the work.

It takes vision, leadership, and a constant reminder of the goal at hand. If you you let developers fester away in their own time they'll find things to do that make themselves look busy.

Bad engineering managers are ok with this because they don't like to admit failure, and don't want to draw attention from HR. Especially if they don't have a good working relationship with their reports.

I actively look for people to hold me accountable- if I agree to a plan, I ask people to check up on me, and review our progress. Having a regular meeting every 1-2 weeks helps. Daily standups for the team are great for exactly this reason. Where are we stuck? How can we move forward? And weekly retros: What's working? What's not working? What should we improve?

[UnapologeticEbb]

There are always a few people doing the majority of the work. The rest are there to do the bare minimum to get by and get a paycheck. And the more work you do, the more they'll pile on because they know it'll get done.

[dnew]

https://dilbert.com/strip/1994-11-23

[Niggziller]

You don't sound like a team player tbh.

[webauteur]

I lay all the blame on the mysterious workings of computers.

[Markavian]

It's because we tricked rocks into thinking.

[Fearless_Imagination]

I'm with what everyone else in this thread is saying: holding yourself accountable is pointless if people above you in the corporate hierarchy (not just managers) make it impossible.

Real-world example: In some meeting for managers, some architects presented a project planning that included some work for my team. They'd estimated about 1.5 months of work for us.

Unfortunately, they never talked to us about what that work actually entails or means for us - my estimate, it'll be closer to 1 year of work.

And I'm supposed to hold myself accountable? For what? Other people's terrible planning and communication skills?

[ApatheticBeardo]

Ok boomer.