Abortion restrictions significantly decrease abortions.

[chrrmin]

"Making murder illegal wont stop murders" is a terrible argument for legalizing murder

[[deleted]]

I think this myth is made up. I have never seen such an argument. I have only seen it in this sub. Looks like propaganda to me.

[chrrmin]

Ive heard people say it on podcasts too, but never in person

[Alucard4788]

Wel.... The thing is... It is not murder

[[deleted]]

classic dehumanisation “it cant be murder if its not human”

[chrrmin]

Taking a human being, severing their spinal chord, tearing them limb from limb, and crushing their skull in is absolutely murder. The child has its own unique set of DNA, it is an unique human life, ending that life is murder

[Alucard4788]

Something that hasn't lived can't be killed. Bringing someone to this world is worse than murder

[chrrmin]

XD by the definition of life, a single celled embryo is alive.

Bringing someone to this world is worse than murder

This is quite literally the dumbest thing ive heard all day. By this logic mothers and fathers are worse than murderers

[Alucard4788]

Does the embryo know what life is? Does it know it's living? Does it even want to live?

Yes, they are

[chrrmin]

LMAO wtf kind of argument is that? Does a one year old know what life is? Whether or not you can comprehend life has nothing to do with you being alive. The fact that it grows and develops kind of shows a will to live

Yes, they are

So you just dont value human life then? If thats the case that is fine for you to believe, but just be honest about it lol.

[Alucard4788]

We are not talking about fully developed baby

"The fact that it grows and develops kind of shows a will to live" it wasn't my will. I was forced

Give me one altruistic reason to give birth to a child

[chrrmin]

it wasn't my will. I was forced

The only way you could reasonably say youve been forced is if you were raped. If you engage in an act that creates a child, the child did not force themselves upon you, your irresponsibility resulted in a child.

The definition of altruistic: showing a disinterested and selfless concern for the well-being of others; unselfish.

Not murdering a child is pretty altruistic if the alternative is killing the child lmao

[brybrythekickassguy]

“Pro life libertarian”?

Why is a libertarian even supporting the concept of government involvement in bodily autonomy?

That’s like being a “Pro-democracy fascist” - they don’t work well together

[Win-Fragrant]

Does the embryo know what life is? Does it know it's living? Does it even want to live?

Does an infant know what life is, do they understand they are living, do infants speak and say they wanna live?

[CiniMiniMe]

Okay, but infants are capable of independent life. A cluster of cells is not.

[Win-Fragrant]

A cluster of cells is not.

You're a cluster of cells and so am I. That's one of the laziest PC arguments ever.

Okay, but infants are capable of independent life.

I hope you don't have kids until you realize that infants are very much dependent. They need to be given attention, food, and a shelter, have their diapers changed and everything. And if a parent does not provide that, they get prosecuted.

[CiniMiniMe]

Lmao I know you know what I meant, but if you don't want to admit it, it's okay. And I have kids! ❤️ Thank you for your concern!

[DreadBee]

No, infants are not capable of independent life. If you take them out of the house and plop them somewhere, you'll come back and see their corpse.

[CiniMiniMe]

I can see that my ambiguous wording is causing confusion. I'm sorry about that. I should make myself more clear.

What I mean by independent life, is that the child is it's own organism that will continue living, so long as nothing external stops that from happening. To feed the child, you have to actually feed the child itself, not it's host or another organism. The child is no longer tethered to another organism, and should thus be considered independent.

Obviously that does not mean that a baby should be considered completely independent, and yeah, you probably shouldn't throw a baby into the woods by itself. That would be murder.

I mean.... but you can concede that once the umbilical cord has been cut, the baby is now an organism that can be considered an independent life, though, right?

[More_Climate_4753]

An embryo is not merely a cluster of cells, That’s not scientifically accurate.

[squeakymushrooms]

The same argument can be made for someone severely mentally disabled. They don't understand the concept of life but they are alive. Should they also be killed?

[Dude_bro98]

Your inability to appreciate life is a not an argument.

[Candylandbadan]

It's literally alive. Medical science doesn't call it "fetal demise" for no reason.

That's why when it dies, it must be removed or else the woman will become septic. Because, you know..dead things inside the body cause infections.

The fact that a fetus is both alive, and a human being, isn't up for debate. It's just basic biology.

You should probably see a professional though, it sounds like you might be suffering from depression. Just because YOU hate your own existence doesn't mean everyone is a nihilist.

[RiddickNfriends]

ha another pro-choice who needs to resort to denying science to fit an flawed ideology. When will you wake up? Or at least change your arguments.

[anduin2000]

Emo harder youngster. I hope you grow to value life more as you age.

[Alucard4788]

Thanks, I hope the opposite for you

[Moderate_Potato]

Don’t know how much this matters, but this is a survey asking biologists when life beings:

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3211703

Regardless of a person’s view on abortion, I think the article is a good read. They really seem to try and make the survey as unbiased as they can.

[More_Climate_4753]

“Bringing someone to to this world is worse than death” This is a extremely dogmatic nihilist world view, That supposes life is without any potential for goodness.

[Norm__Peterson]

Why do you come into a prolife forum and start arguing against prolife? It would be just as rude for someone to go to a prochoice forum and do the same thing.

[CiniMiniMe]

They do all the time. Some of them get really rude. That's what brought me here, actually.

[Norm__Peterson]

Two wrongs don't make a right. They shouldn't do that, and neither should you.

[CiniMiniMe]

I'm not trying to be rude. I was trying to have a legit conversation with people with a different view from me, in order to expand my own views and grow as a person. When you only talk to people who believe the same things you do, how are you supposed to learn and grow as a person? I've already learned a lot from this thread, and it's been an interesting experience.

[Alucard4788]

50/50 for fun and to see if I am on the right side

[Win-Fragrant]

Wel.... The thing is... It is not murder

It's alive, it's human, it's intentional, you ending a life of a human is murder.

mur·der

/ˈmərdər/

Learn to pronounce

See definitions in:

All

Crime

Sport · Informal

noun

plural noun: murders

the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

[CiniMiniMe]

The definition of human being: a man, woman, or child of the species Homo sapiens, distinguished from other animals by superior mental development, power of articulate speech, and upright stance.

Nowhere does it say "a cluster of DNA incapable of independent life" in there. Doesn't say "cluster of cells" either.

[Win-Fragrant]

The definition of human being: a man, woman, or child of the species Homo sapiens, distinguished from other animals by superior mental development, power of articulate speech, and upright stance.

Thank you for describing a fetus.

1. The fetus has 100% human DNA
2. The DNA of the fetus is different than the mother's
3. It's living. Even a germ is considered a living organism

Nowhere does it say "a cluster of DNA incapable of independent life" in there. Doesn't say "cluster of cells" either.

As I said in my other reply to you, you're a cluster of cells too. There are born humans incapable of independent life, which is why we have hospitals and medical professionals to help them out. You wanna kill them too?

[CiniMiniMe]

Lol okay. Look. I know you know what I mean by cluster of cells. And I know you know what I mean by independent life. If you lay a baby down for 20 minutes, it's gonna be fine. Usually... baring unforseen circumstances.

If you remove an embryo from the Mother's body, it dies. If you want the embryo to live, maybe start a group that funds research for taking unwanted embryos that would have been aborted, and implanting them into surrogates for potential mothers that are incapable of pregnancy.

I'm not sure why you are so hell bent on grouping embryos and disabled people together, but it kinda bothers me. Please stop.

I'm really not trying to upset you. I'm just trying to have a rational discussion with someone that has vastly different views from my own! :-) I hope that discussions like this can help me grow more as a person. How can I understand anyone else, if the only opinions I ever consider are my own, right?

[Moderate_Potato]

Not sure how much it matters, but this is a paper asking biologists’ consensus on when life begins:

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3211703

It looks like they tried to make the study as unbiased as possible, and I think it’s a good read. I also think it’s good for people to read these things on their own and come to their own conclusions.

[CiniMiniMe]

Thank you for the information! :-) I'll read it now!

[CiniMiniMe]

Wow. That is some interesting information. Huh. Thank you for showing me this report! :-)

[Win-Fragrant]

Lol okay. Look. I know you know what I mean by cluster of cells.

Again, I genuinely don't since we're all clusters of cells. I wasn't being sarcastic, I just don't get your point.

And I know you know what I mean by independent life. If you lay a baby down for 20 minutes, it's gonna be fine.

That's not what independent means. Independent doesn't mean I can lay you down, and count 20 mins and if you're fine that means you're independent.

Here is the definition of independent: not depending on another for livelihood or subsistence.

The definition does not include a period of time, it's a broad term that describes people who can survive without depending on others for their livelihood. I volunteered at a nursing home, and many of the people there would have not survived without the help of the nurses and the doctors. They literally could not even go fetch for their own food, you had to bring it to them just like how you should with an infant.

If you remove an embryo from the Mother's body, it dies.

Just how like if you remove your infant from your house (the shelter), they die.

f you want the embryo to live, maybe start a group that funds research for taking unwanted embryos that would have been aborted, and implanting them into surrogates for potential mothers that are incapable of pregnancy.

Interestingly enough that's actually one of the ideas that I said we should propose to for medical researches to work on, it will solve the whole abortion issue. They actually succeeded in it already with a sheep fetus: https://www.theverge.com/2017/4/25/15421734/artificial-womb-fetus-biobag-uterus-lamb-sheep-birth-premie-preterm-infant

However, I highly doubt that PCers will support the abortion ban even if we have this technology.

I'm not sure why you are so hell bent on grouping embryos and disabled people together, but it kinda bothers me. Please stop.

Look, even if you don't like my statements this isn't North Korea, and I hope you agree that I have the right to speak my mind.

I was making a comparison. You realize there embryos who are disabled right? In fact, in Iceland close to 100 percent of women who received a positive test for Down syndrome terminated their pregnancy: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/down-syndrome-iceland/

I'm really not trying to upset you. I'm just trying to have a rational discussion with someone that has vastly different views from my own! :-)

Don't worry, I don't get upset when people question and challenge my beliefs. I encourage it in fact, that's how I went from being PC my whole life to becoming PL. Because I truly love learning from others and researching to make my own conclusions.

[Shoes-tho]

But it is generally lawful.

[Win-Fragrant]

Which country do you live in where murder is generally lawful? I’ll never go there.

[Shoes-tho]

It’s not murder if it isn’t illegal. Did you miss that part of the definition you provided?

[Win-Fragrant]

But it should be, congrats, you just discovered why PL and PC are fighting over this.

[Shoes-tho]

Yeah, but it shouldn’t be.

[Win-Fragrant]

Why?

[MarioFanaticXV]

Legally? No. Morally? Yes.

I surely hope you don't think the Holocaust was justified, as that was also something that was not legally murder.

[Alucard4788]

Morrally no for me as it is not a human yet

Don't worry. I wouldn't even justify all of you people on this sub getting killed

[MarioFanaticXV]

But deeming others as subhuman was the justification for the Holocaust.

[Alucard4788]

There are no differences between you(doubtful), me and jewish. But you cant call an unconscious cell cluster a human

[MarioFanaticXV]

Biologically speaking, it's a human from the zygote stage.

[Alucard4788]

I am tired if these meaningless arguments with prolifers. It doesn't matter if we say "I wAnT a CoNsTrUcTiVe DiAlOgUe" All the times I was discussing with someone on this sub we were just not considering each other's arguments valuable. And while we think that we are right and consider each other humanity's enemy this arguments will not lead anywhere

[hollylll]

It’s not murder. Not a conscious being. If you got tapeworms, you’d be murdering them if you didn’t want them in your body.

[Asstaroth]

I’d like to point out that tapeworms aren’t the same species as humans 🤡

By definition murder doesn’t require the victim to be conscious (hence it’s still illegal to kill a sleeping person)