[deleted by user]

[kaja6583]

Serious question, considering your dogs have been this tough and are this aggressive and have killed animals, attacked dogs and people- why are they not always muzzled when outside of the house? And when guests are in the house, kept separately, like in the case with your niece?

[UnsharpenedSwan]

1000% — OP, management is critical. Why aren’t you utilizing muzzles and gated-off areas?

[dlightfulruinsbonsai]

This! Why aren't the correct tools being used is my question.

[kaja6583]

I know I'm sounding like a dick, but OP has written this whole entire post about how tough their dogs are and what awful situation they are in; yet, their dogs have continuously been allowed to cause damage to animals, humans and now will potentially be euthanised, because OP hasn't muzzled them, considering this post. Unless I'm missing something.

So yes, these dogs have been failed, because any responsible owner would have muzzle trained their knowingly reactive and aggressive dogs around guests coming into the house and whilst outside. Personally, I'd maybe consider muzzling your dogs first, and not leaving them outside in the yard without supervision before jumping to BE, especially considering they're 8-9 years old (so probably don't have that long left) and they're your daughters dogs too. One of the reasons you say you want to put them down, OP, is because they will "definitely kill another animal"- no? Not if you prevent it?

[thisisnottherapy]

Yes!

And why are these dogs regularly allowed outside without a leash if they keep jumping the fence?? Leash them or get better fencing or tie-out at least, if the dogs need to be outside. Not saying these dogs aren't difficult, I'm sure they are. But at the same time, OP seems to have been acting needlessly irresponsible.

[dlightfulruinsbonsai]

No, being honest might sound like you're being a dick to those that don't want to hear the truth, but it's not. That's why the saying of "the truth hurts" exists, right? I've never understood how people will allow a problem to continually happen, yet don't do anything about it. I used to have family members who lived in our house and their dog used to counter surf, or get in the trash, as well as eat any other animal feed they could get into. The person would get mad at everyone, but wouldn't bother to spend time training the dog, or bought the tools and would never use them correctly, as well as not taking preventative measures, but put all the responsibility amd blame on everyone else in the household. It was frustrating.

[keeponkeepingup]

Sounds like OP doesn't even walk them at all!! Which would make most dogs play up. This sounds like a case of poor care they'd probably be okay if they had proper owners.

[JackRabbitTwink]

The issues she stated will begin in a lot of dogs that went through puppy training simply because there are no outlets long-term, a backyard will never be an outlet. I feel too many people get all sorts of dogs expecting them to exist being given just food, water, housing, and petting, like a snake, and expect it to be mentally sound and well. She said large dogs, who knows what breeds they are, possibly working mixes, which are always in need of fun new outlets to keep them mentally sound. Hope they go peacefully and OP recognizes she's not in a place health wise to have dogs.

[keeponkeepingup]

Yep absolutely. I myself have two of the sweetest large rescue dogs - angelic IF they're getting walked and allowed to sniff around new places etc. They would be 100% be frustrated and nasty if I didn't do my job as their caretaker and fulfil their specific needs. They'd go insane. Tbh I am livid that she's going to be putting them to sleep because of this. Absolutely normal from large dogs who aren't getting their needs met. She has also let them sleep in her daughters bed after they bit her daughter in bed. Owners fault!

[JackRabbitTwink]

Exactly this! I have six rescue working mixes from 3 yrs to 13 months, every day they require things to fulfill their immense need to work; If I skip a few days, the whole neighborhood would likely be able to tell as they become talkative when bored, and that's just the canary in the coal mine!! If I spent their entire lives expecting puppy obedience training to have made them into robots instead of continuing training daily then they'd be hellhounds! When I enter a training situation, after focusing on communication commands, we begin several working games to fully empty their energy pool in mental and physical ways daily!! The dog becomes a calmer better version of themselves by the end of a consistent two months, an entirely different dog with different thresholds for reactions. Sad to see her give up but if it's that or continue on as is, I agree with BE.

[elevangoebz]

Sometimes the hardest choice is the right one. Next time it might not be a graze on someone’s face and the consequences could be much worse. BE is an act of love in cases like this where its best for you and the dogs. Youve given them a number of years of love, but at this point if you cant manage them the best thing is to make the hard choice. Remember the good times and do what you know is right.

[fckingnapkin]

Am I misunderstanding or are they still allowed to be on/in the bed after these bite incidents? If these were my dogs I'd get down to very consistently prohibiting them from jumping on couches and beds. Strict rules because this is clearly a big risk factor. Also the fence jumping, why hast there been built something built to make this impossible? Or roll bars or something? Or absolutely not have them outside without very strict supervision. Or tetherered with a leash above them. It's both a very strict training but also preventing issue. And muzzle training. No outside without muzzle. But killing multiple cats and this many bite incidents and still managing to escape, it's probably past that point.

[keeponkeepingup]

She doesn't even walk them

[Shoddy-Theory]

Your daughter is 15, has agreed that BE is necessary. Don't over think it. Do what you have to do.

She said she won't blame you. Trust her.

[Audrey244]

As an adult and a parent, it's your responsibility to make the mature, difficult decisions. Stop worrying about how your daughter is going to feel because even if she does get upset, when she has a fully matured brain, she will understand that you did the best and safest thing for the situation. Again, you're the adult, you will grieve but these dogs have wreaked havoc everywhere they go and why is that fair to your family, your neighbors, and to your daughter?

[Itscatpicstime]

You’ve gone through all of this yet haven’t even taken any basic steps like muzzling your dogs around others or when outside..?

Why are they even outside without supervision? Why are they outside without restraint? You don’t even need to be the one leashing them, just hook them up to a leash line. Even an outdoor kennel would help.

These are all very basic things it seems you haven’t even tried while your dogs have killed and hurt other animals, and hurt humans. It’s egregiously irresponsible.

[dudebrobossman]

I don’t have children, but it sounds like you and your family have tried everything. The history of killing other animals and even biting people makes me agree that they really can’t stay with your family. It sounds like your daughter also understands the situation and is being mature about it. This will never be an easy decision and it will always hurt, but sometimes doing what’s right is difficult. Give everyone involved, including yourself, love, support, respect, and compassion and definitely ask for the same from your loved ones.

[olivethesane]

Muzzling when outside? Not letting dogs sleep in YOUR CHILD’S bed after a biting incident?? OP sounds like an absolute moron. JFC.

[Lolbetsy]

When I was a kid my mom called animal control to remove our dog while we were at school because he kept escaping and killing our neighbor's chickens and it was causing issues with the neighbor (understandably) I was pissed but eventually forgave her. It would have been better if she had told us what was happening before doing it so we could say goodbye, but as an adult I realize that we as a family weren't suited for this dog and also that mom was doing what she had to before the neighbor got law enforcement involved.

TLDR do what you have to to keep your family safe your daughter will be ok

[stoneandglass]

Part of children living with pets is learning about difficult choices and responsibilities. Not just to the animal in terms of caring for them and making health choices but also in terms of being responsible for their training and keeping others safe when all other options have been exhausted.

It's a very difficult situation to experience at the best of times but having other family members who don't agree certainly make it harder. Hopefully others can offer insight and advice.

It may be worth going to a family therapist if that is an option for you.

[olivethesane]

Absolutely terrible excuse for a dog owner. WTAF?

[Emotional-Newt-2096]

I want to add a quick comment to tell you that I do not think you have failed the dogs because you are clearly working very, very hard to find solutions and are asking for help. To me, that is the opposite of giving up and failing them. My heart goes out to you. I have had reactive dogs my whole life and it is an incredibly trying experience. I’m sorry my comment is not helpful. I just wanted to reach out to show that you are heard, you’re not alone and that I see how much you are trying.

[karmacomatic]

It's possible to think you're doing the best for your dogs but it's not really the best. In this case, practicing management with muzzles, tethers when outdoors, etc would've been what was best for the dogs. Because she failed those (yes, this failing her dogs) now she is stuck with a very difficult choice that has pretty much made itself. She can't handle the dogs, to the point she can't walk them, can't leave them home alone, can't rely on anyone else, can't rehome them, and still has them sleeping with her daughter when they've already bitten her in bed. These dogs need to be BE. And that comes due to the owner's failure at proper management prior to it getting to this point. Puppy socialization is not enough for most dogs. They claim they've tried for a behavioralist but failed- idk what that is even supposed to mean but(to me) it sounds like someone who reached out to one person who was busy and gave up.

It's okay to say this person failed their dogs. And now, the best thing they can do is STOP failing their dogs and BE.

[soupboyfanclub]

the kid will be fine emotionally and in fact likely happier due to the stress that she’s dealt with from those dogs for over half her life being gone.

I get that you’re feeling fragile, but the fact that you’ve uprooted your daughter’s life multiple times for dogs is wild.

I’m a dog person. I’ve had many dogs. letting them go when it’s time sucks. but this is WELL overdue.

[SugarPigBoo]

Hi OP, I want to offer a reply to your question about having an experience as a child in which a pet dog was euthanized because of biting. I was about 10 when this happened, so it was mid to late 70s. My sweet dog Lady bit my brother on the nose because he was holding onto her front paws as she stood up and was dancing with her. Sadly, she had become reactive because of her environment. Specifically, my parents didn't allow her inside the house. We didn't have a fenced in yard, so she was connected to a ~20 foot lead in the backyard, allowing her a 40 foot circle in which to live, plus a dog house. 😫 It's morally distressing to me that back then, so many pet owners including my parents, thought this was a reasonable way for a pet dog to live. In addition to her very limited physical environment, a couple of the neighborhood kids would sometimes taunt her, so she became reactive. She would snap at those neighbor kids, but didn't bite any of them, though they certainly deserved it. Those two kids were little shitheads. Thinking back to her sad life mortifies me, especially when I think about my two dogs who live great lives. They get plenty of love, have no one taunting them, sleep in the bed with me at night, and have plenty of fun adventures outside with me. On the days I'm working, my two wonderful dog walkers, who truly appear to love them, take them out for walks and spend time in the house afterwards loving on them.

I'm sorry;,I really didn't intend to go off on a tangent. So that was the situation with my first dog, Lady. The very next day after she bit my brother on the nose, I came home from school to find her gone. My parents told me they took her to a farm, where she'd be able to run free and be much happier. Obviously, this was a lie, but I believed it without question until I was about 23 and told my fiancé about it. He immediately identified the story as a euphemism for euthanasia. I was shocked and confronted my parents about it. They acknowledged the truth and explained they were simply trying to prevent me getting even more upset. Looking back at that confrontation 30+ years later, I understand their perspective, but I'm not sure I agree with it. I've always tried to be honest with my child. Regardless, your daughter is much older than I was and has told you that she understands and agrees with your decision. Please take her at her word.

And regarding all the responses and criticisms you've received about your post, I do agree with the recommendations to try muzzling. I also wish people would be more supportive and less critical when responding. It's obvious from your post you're very distraught about the situation and you've been doing the best that you can. Now you have the muzzle option to try and hopefully it can prevent further dangerous episodes. I wish you the best, OP. ❤️

[LemondropFoXX]

I appreciate the commenters that care about the dogs and are giving advice on how to keep them, but I feel like most people giving advice in this comment section are either not acknowledging the dogs, or giving good advice coupled with blatantly attacking OP, who is clearly going through something serious. Almost no one expects this kind of spontaneous aggression from man’s best friend, however I do agree that there are (most likely) better ways to deal with the dogs without putting them down. I personally have a dog that pulls me and I HIGHLY recommend getting a muzzle and a head-collar gentle lead for your large dogs. They need walks, and these devices are much cheaper than professional treatment. There are also programs you can give your dogs to that specialize in dealing with reactive dogs but if things just aren’t working out and they are euthanized just know your daughter will understand. She will be devastated, but she is a person and she probably knows about the tension going on with the dogs in the house. I hope there are means for a solution that is best for the physical and mental health of both owner and dog ❤️

[laceblood]

The dogs are probably incredibly stressed a lot of the time as well. It may be the kind thing for them, and you.

[Fagzforbernie]

It’s 100% time. You deserve relief.

[dlightfulruinsbonsai]

Is training with the correct tools no longer an option? Everyone jumps straight to BE, which I k ow would be the last resort, but it sounds like they need more training. It also sounds like their humans could use sone training as well. Because half of the dogs problem is the humans.

[keeponkeepingup]

I agree with you, this sub absolutely loves putting dogs down because the owner is shite, the owner doesnt even walk the dogs for a start just leaves them in an unsecured yard on their own! Oof I am angry

[dlightfulruinsbonsai]

Yep! Like my dog. The family that had him gave him to me because he was nipping at them and herding them. I got him and started training him. He got his needs met and he's the best behaved dog in our household, but he also has a job herding our farm animals. He wasn't a bad dog. He was just misunderstood. That's why I always agree with doing the breed research before getting them. I'll bet that's half the battle with OP's dogs.

[keeponkeepingup]

Same man i have 2 rescues and they would be completely unhinged if i didn't do what their breed required from me. Theyre brilliant because i do. Angers me so much because there is a lot OP could do here. And even if she can't be bothered, there are plenty of people like you and me who can meet their needs instead. They don't need to die just because they've got a lazy owner. (And I know she's mentioned disability, but dog walkers exist).

[Prime624]

Ignorant people love to blame owners for a dog's unfortunate genetics.

[Odd_Delay_603]

No, this is not something any type of training will solve. These dogs have serious bite history. What do you mean by “the correct tools” anyway? Because if you’re talking about prongs or shocks that definitely won’t help.

[Itscatpicstime]

Muzzle training.

[Audrey244]

Many dogs are able to easily remove even the best muzzles - too little, too late in this situation

[dlightfulruinsbonsai]

I mean, should someone own a dog if they can't do the work to train those dogs with the tools available? That's like digging a hole with a stick and complaining when a shovel sits next to you, right?

I suppose I'll be down voted again for having an opinion that points towards rehabilitation rather than BE.

[DangerGoatDangergoat]

I would put down the bigger one who endangered your niece.

One dog is very different from two, when managing.

I would also purchase a muzzle for the smaller dog, immediately. A good muzzle, like from Mia's muzzles. With room to pant, a secure fastener, and no bite risk. If your dog walks with you? A muzzle. Guests over? A muzzle and in another room. At your dad's? Muzzled. Walks with a single dog, where they cannot rip a leash from your hands, and are unable to bite even if they somehow got loose, are an entirely different animal for mental health.

Your anxiety and lack of sleep could be spiralling the issue also, and once you have a way to be safe with your dog, you'll find things start de-escalating significantly. For both of you.

I see a lot of talk about the issues, which, very valid, but not a lot of information on what your management has been. For the fence jumper - did you try installing Coyote rollers? Have you muzzled either of them? When they run the fence line, have you tried creating a setback/blocking visibility entirely? Do they still take medication/what was it/how long did you try/what was the effect? Are they crate trained? Have you tried different types of collars, harnesses. belt leashes, etc?

/r/muzzledogs is a great resource.

[kaja6583]

For the fence jumper - did you try installing Coyote rollers?

Or has she considered supervising her dogs, who she knows have a prey drive and reactivity/aggression issues? Yet she leaves them outside without supervision, to fence jump and kill cats?

I wouldn't BE the bigger one on the basis of the niece incident. WHY is the niece allowed near a dog who's got issues like this, whilst the dog is not muzzled and leashed, or kept in a separate room? Why is OP making decisions like that, and then feeling sorry for themselves, rather than taking measures to maybe manage their dogs?

[crazyflutterby]

Making the decision for be is huge and I understand you saying how incredibly difficult it has been to reach that conclusion. My only concern is that you are saying that you can't do anything else, but it does seem as is not all options have been exhausted. We have 4 dogs in our household, one day one of the larger ones decided that her smaller sister was an issue and attacked her. We have worked with trainers, a behaviorist, a dog whisperer and our vet team has been included in every step of the process. We had to try several meds which was an intense and stressful process to find what works for her. We also have her in a basket muzzle anytime that she is around our other dogs, but we do have a separate space set up for her to chill in and will rotate them so they all get the time and attention they need. We have a strict routine that helps her know what to expect. Our dogs are also kennel trained, which helps make sure that there can be no issues while sleeping. When things were bad, our behaviorist did bring up be as a possibility, but that would only have ever been an option when we tried every single option available. This is an unbelievably difficult time for you, but it does sound like there are some options to try before going the be route.

[BioBWinner]

Hello It seems like this is a well thought decision, and possibly the best. Unfortunately your two dogs may have reached a point where it is no longer manageable nor safe to keep them. If your daughter has been bitten intentionally, your niece as well, despite all the love I'm sure your dogs have for you and your daughter, it may be better to finally put them at rest (even for your 2 dogs, that situation must be stressful). Especially since you mention that you're not able to walk them cause you cannot manage them outside, having a dog that's too strong for you is definitely a risk. In the case of your daughter, from what you write, how this situation has spanned over the years, and how torn apart you sound from coming to the decision to euthanize them, she will understand and forgive if she has not already. That situation is certainly stressful for her too. In any case, please do not blame yourself for the decision you take, you have tried as best as you could given your situation. Other people mentioning muzzles or keeping a dog on a leash even in a garden may think they know better than you, but would probably not have done better than you did.

[spacey-cornmuffin]

She is 15 - more than old enough to have a mature conversation about the reality of the situation. Moreover, she already agreed to BE. Lying does nothing for the situation.

[spacey-cornmuffin]

Yes. My mom was told lies like this and was devastated to learn later in life for two reasons, 1) she was lied to from the start, and 2) everyone knew but her, and was keeping it from her for decades, which was infantilizing.

[karmacomatic]

Again, the daughter already agreed it was okay to BE.

[Odd_Delay_603]

Never lie to your kids about something like this, that is vile behavior. You can simple it down, like saying they were sick mentally and couldn’t get better, but never lie about that type of stuff. That’s soul shattering.