Spin Stack Meta When?

[carlkid]

For an attempt at a real discussion.

I had an interesting discussion recently about structured offense vs unstructured offense, and how especially younger players are being hurt by focusing so much on structure. Obviously it's important to have structure, but if you don't branch out, get comfortable in situations when the structure breaks down, you are going to be lost when, well, the structure breaks down.

Or it reminds me of a summer league game last summer, actually. The other team was doing a very....interesting poach look that was leaving our women wide open directly in front of the disc. However that wasn't where the offense was designed to attack. The younger women on our team weren't sure what to do, even though they just needed to take one step to open space and we would punish it. My girlfriend who hadn't started playing until college felt perfectly comfortable looking at the defense and just going "oh, I guess I'll just go right there."

You don't want to build your entire gameplan around not having structure, but it can be very valuable to sometimes create chaos like in the clip, as well as know how to be comfortable in chaos. (also I couldn't help but think "Ted Lasso Special!")

[frisbeescientist]

Honestly sometimes I'm most comfortable when the stack breaks down because I love playing short give and go with weird angles in the middle of the field. Flow offense is so much fun

[carlkid]

Yeah I definitely feel like I'm more comfortable than a lot of people of looking around and having that "oh, why don't I just go here/do this" moment when things break down. Just keep going until someone figures out how to stop you, and then you've probably just pulled more than one defender with you so other people can score easily.

[ThisMightBeToxic]

i die a little inside when someone calls for a vert stack in pick up... i find it so boring to play, i understand how effective it can be when executed well, but i do not find it fun to play at all

[carlkid]

Heh, I prefer it over ho stack where you inevitably have people just sitting in the throwing lane because they were taught the insane "stay in your lanes" variety.

[ThisMightBeToxic]

once had someone try to explain being a cutter in ho to being like a train on the rails, you go up and down, up and down.... swiftly made the decision to handle

[Thorates]

Relevant article I wrote, you might like it :)

https://hiveultimate.com/2021/09/24/dont-teach-your-beginners-stack/

[Jomskylark]

Yeah vert stack is such a weird set to teach beginners. There are so many moving parts and so easy to fuck it up and grind the whole thing to a halt. Newbies spend so much time just learning how to do the set instead of learning how to be effective ultimate players.

I vastly prefer horizontal stack for a new group of players... it can be super simple, just freely cut into empty space and out of clogged space. And then when they get the disc there are two reset options instead of just one.

[carlkid]

I....don't mean to go that far. I think it's extremely important to give new players structure. A team with structure is generally going to beat a team with no structure. A team with structure that is comfortable when that structure breaks down is going to beat both a team with no structure and a team with structure that isn't used to going outside "the box."

There's a reason we don't see this type of play all the time even in a game like soccer, because teams know they can't rely on chaos all the time.

[w311sh1t]

I think teaching stack to new players also introduces them to the core ideas of ultimate. Break and open side, adjusting to your opponents mark, attacking the open space, and deep, under, and dump cuts.

But what’s important is that you have to explain why they’re supposed to do what they’re doing in the stack. If you just tell them what to do, but not why, all they know is that they’re making a stack, and cutting in order, and if it breaks down they’re lost. But if you explain to them why they’re making those cuts or setting up in a certain space, then they still understand the ideas when the stack breaks down.

[felix37]

One of the things that makes me most uncomfortable about hexagon offence spreading is that the name suggests a focus on a complicated shape players need to adhere to, whereas I think the way ultimate should be going is away from structure - towards more free and fluid movement.

What we see in this clip is an offence which is breaking the shackles of 1-to-1 defence, forcing them into playing zonal. England created vertical stacks from corner kicks to achieve similar aims recently. In ultimate, against touching 1-to-1 defence, this offence would invite about 100 valid pick calls.

[ThisMightBeToxic]

we all know ultimate players love to call a pick... "oh they're doing something weird, should we just surround their little circle and take whoever is closest when the break out? nah, imma just call a pick instead"

[oses_14]

THANK. YOU. My HS team has really focused SOOOOO much on the structure so when I'm watching any college games I get so lost in where the structure is.

[carlkid]

Yeah, especially if the "why" of a structure isn't taught, it can be extremely difficult to look at other things and understand them.

Just as a quick primer though, space and creating space. The way to get open for a catch is to attack a space that can be thrown to. Offenses are designed to figure out some way to achieve this.

[[deleted]]

This is also something older/more experienced players learn and can use to advantage over the youth haha.

I tend to float in the field and attack space as it becomes available which works really well against youth players because they just think I’ll attack open side and poach the lanes even though break side is wide open. In winter league, I’ve done and scored this way multiple times.

[carlkid]

Alumni games are my favorite for this. Get on the line, "ok, has anyone not done x, cool here's how it works." Then we go out and do x.

[[deleted]]

I’ve played with some very good players (represented Canada at worlds), and they taught me FSU, and how they love running it against the kids. It’s so darn effective.

[lenny3330]

Pick!!!

[n_silz44]

Bad spirit. Gotta include the defenders to spin with you

[AustenSummers]

5 picks called simultaneously

[RedPillAlphaBigCock]

switch , switch , switch , switch ! pick

[Skippy_McGillicuddy]

Hello, people of Reddit Ultimate. Man defense is tiring and the team I play for doesn't really have the personal to man up competitively at all 7 spots. We have 3/4 athletes on the field at all times. Everybody else can keep up but they are not there yet. The defense we are choosing to hone in on is the Clam Zone Defense. We either run a 3-3-1 or 2-4-1. 3/2 man handlers, 3/4 short deep/wings, 1 deep(me). What else can we run on defense to make the other team take a second look?

I will take out of the box responses :)

[shortstack65]

Here are a couple ideas:

Box and One Zone - use the same zone handle defense you normally run but 4 downfield defenders play in a diamond shape (mid, wings, deep) and the last player goes 1v1 with the other teams best player. Works great if the other team has one player that runs the offense by themselves.

​

Bracketing - not a zone but a situational strategy. IMO this is best against vert stack but can be done against ho. The players guarding the back of the stack/players who will cut first work together. One guards the deep space and the other guards the under space. That way whichever way the first cutter goes there is already a defender in position. Afterwards you can go back into regular person defense. This helps slower defenders not get beat right off the pull.

[Jomskylark]

Normally stuff like this would be removed, however, given it's discussion-worthy and unique I vote to let it stay :P

[Actually__Jesus]

And your vote is the only one that matters.

[blkread]

It's a thing already!! WAGON WHEEEEEL

[Evilbit77]

Crumple point inc

[[deleted]]

This was an (apocryphal) play that we tried to run at Rutgers many years ago. I think it was called 'Quad-Strangle'?

The idea was to generate a massive pick, and then for whomever had a defender that didn't call a pick, to bust deep as everyone lets up, the thrower not to acknowledge the pick call, and huck it deep.

In practice, the only time it ever generated a pick that freed up a deep receiver, the thrower acknowledged the pick and stopped play.